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A Contagious Smile Podcast
"A Contagious Smile" is a transformative platform embracing special needs families and domestic violence survivors. We illuminate the journeys of extraordinary individuals who've triumphed over adversity and aspire to ignite your own inner light. Through candid stories, we showcase how they conquered challenges and emerged stronger. Our podcast features insightful interviews with experts, offering resources that empower and uplift. Let us guide you in rediscovering your inner light – because every smile narrates a tale of resilience. It's time to share your story and rekindle your spirit.
A Contagious Smile Podcast
Boundaries and Breakthroughs: Dr. Catherine Cleveland on Navigating Narcissistic Family Dynamics, Empowering Self-Worth, and Healing Through Breathwork
https://clevelandemotionalhealth.com/catherines-books/Unlock the secrets of setting healthy boundaries and breaking away from negative cycles with insights from our special guest, Dr. Catherine Cleveland. In this episode of A Contagious Smile, Dr. Cleveland takes us on her extraordinary journey from the life of a dairy farmer’s wife to becoming a distinguished mental health counselor and author. We explore her acclaimed books, "The Four Essential Pillars of Boundary Setting" and "Cultivating Gratitude, Gratefulness, and Graciousness," and get a sneak peek into her upcoming release, "Kinder to Myself," which is all about fostering self-compassion.
Our discussion is especially poignant as we tackle the difficult topic of dealing with narcissistic family members, including parents and grandparents. Dr. Cleveland offers valuable advice on recognizing emotional abuse and the importance of setting and maintaining boundaries to protect personal well-being. We delve into real-life challenges faced by those who grew up under narcissistic influence and underscore the significance of mutual understanding and community support in the healing process. This is crucial listening for anyone who has struggled with the shadow of narcissism in their family.
Furthermore, we explore the science behind narcissism, examining the biological and environmental factors that shape these complex behaviors. Dr. Cleveland shares practical strategies for using body language to empower oneself and avoid manipulation, along with techniques like breathwork to manage anxiety and promote healing. Through a blend of personal anecdotes and expert insights, this episode is a treasure trove of actionable advice aimed at helping listeners reclaim their self-worth and navigate their journey to emotional freedom. Tune in for an enlightening and empowering conversation that promises to transform the way you approach relationships and self-care.
Good afternoon and welcome to another episode of A Contagious Smile, where every smile tells a story. I am so excited. I've been trying to get with this amazing woman for a while now but, as everybody knows, with Faith being sick, I had to postpone quite a few interviews and I do apologize for the inconvenience that that caused. But we have Dr Catherine Cleveland with us today. She's amazing. Wait until you hear all of the wonderful things about this woman. I can't even do a justifiable bio on her. I'm going to let her tell you a little bit about her. I tried to put something together for her about her bio and I just was like I could talk about just who she is for the entire show. So that's, I'm going to let her tell you about her. Dr Cleveland, thank you so much for being with us today. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you so much for having me on. I'm so grateful to be here to speak with your audience, please call me Catherine.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Catherine. So tell us a little bit about you, because I literally could spend a good hour just over everything you've accomplished and everything you do.
Speaker 2:Well, I could give you a brief background. I was married to a fifth generation dairy farmer and rural community member and in my mid 40s he had died of brain cancer. And then I went back to school to start a second career and got into mental health counseling and into the master's and PhD program and then got into opening my own practice private practice and one of my jobs also is to help residents that graduate from graduate level programs in mental health get into their own private practice. So it's a residency program. As far as I know, it's the only one in the world that we do this because it's specific to get you into learning the business end of it. And then you know, working with my own practice and my own community, you see a lot of common things with people because we always think we come in and people have really unique, different situations and problems, which they do. But there's a lot of commonness between human behavior and I thought it was very important to share that, because people feel so isolated and alone in their problems. And if we could really see like why, how are we similar in what happens in human behavior? So I started to take the most common things that I talk about in my practice, what I talk about with all of my patients for many years and started to write books about them.
Speaker 2:But they're not just books where you just read. They're interactive books. So there's a lot of, there's some coloring, there's some writing, there's writing prompts. It gets you really thinking very deeply. It does some insightful work. So it's almost like counseling a little bit without the counselor, but it also aids with. A lot of counselors use this book to help get some ideas and education with their patients. So that's what I've been doing. I've got two books published and I'm working on my third. So that's where I'm at.
Speaker 1:Catherine, tell us the name of the books you're referring to, so we'll talk about them more in detail later, but what are the names of the two books you already have out?
Speaker 2:So it's going to be a three, maybe four part series and the first book is called the four essential pillars of boundary setting and this is their practice informed guides. That on the front it says that if elevate your empowerment, your authenticity and, most importantly, your self-worth. So it's one of. Those are the things that we feel like how can we be our authentic selves? And then you know, when we're always trying to work with some difficult relationships and then also how can we look and see our own self-worth and value that?
Speaker 2:The other book that just came out is Cultivating Gratitude, gratefulness and Grac, graciousness Same thing. It's really practice informed. In other words, we take theories that are psychology theories and then we run them through the practice to see if they actually work and they actually help people and again, for to become your authentic self, to feel like you are empowered and also work on the healing that you may need for whatever is going on in your personal life. The third one that's coming out is called kinder to myself, because that's very common when I see people that are really struggling is that they're pretty hard on themselves, they're not very nice, and that is just mind-blowing when we start to point that out. So that's. I really like talking about that. How can we be kinder and treat ourselves better?
Speaker 1:So those are the three. I am so excited I actually cannot wait to read all three of them. But what is really interesting is I've been doing a lot of work about narcissism here lately and talking with a lot of people about narcissistic behavior and, um, myself and another wonderful lady, diana diaz also, who's been hosting with me, is talking about the fact that when you grow up in a narcissistic, narcissistic environment that you're pretty much, you know, being trained to what to go to and and that's where you end up. And, like Dana and I, both ended up in really bad marriages that were violent and you know, to say the least, and it's all stemming back from narcissistic behavior.
Speaker 1:And you know, a lot of people say, well, they had a bad childhood. Well, so did we, but we broke the cycle. And it's about the fact that, like a lot of people, catherine don't want to do the work and the ones that should be on the couch never think they need to be on the couch. They don't want to go and get counseling and get help because A they don't own up to anything they've ever done and they don't think that there's anything wrong with them.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. It's so interesting that we really don't understand narcissist behaviors and there's a lot of signs that we can see about like, okay, why is that person the one that needs to come and see the counselor, the therapist? And sometimes they actually do, and they do it to use it to say, see, I did that, you know, and they can. Also some of them are so gifted at it If the counselor or whoever is working with them isn't really well trained in these personality disorders, because that we call them a cluster B personality disorders, which there's four different ones and it all kind of circles.
Speaker 2:That narcissistic is that if we don't recognize it, we're actually teaching them how to be better at what they do. So then we have to be very careful. So, with the supervision that I do, I teach a course at the University of Rochester and we're very careful about pointing this out so we can recognize it when they're coming in the door. Because when we help narcissists that are really like really, if you look at it on a spectrum, they're like higher up, like five or higher that that we're making them worse.
Speaker 1:How do you recognize when you have a narcissist in front of you? How do you see it?
Speaker 2:That is such a great question. So there's a lot to it in the boundary setting book there's there's a page on it and it and it's not to really get into the details of what narcissism is, because it's about teaching the reader how to set boundaries with anybody in their relationship so they just are healthier. First thing that we'll notice is that they can make us feel bad when we have done nothing wrong. That is a red flag right there, why I've done nothing wrong and you're making me feel bad. But we kind of tune that out because some of us are just like we may be people pleasers, we may just want we're kind, we're nice, we want to like just be in a relationship and make things work out. So we kind of tune out to our own authenticity and we tune out of our own intuition. So that's, it is like pay attention to like. If someone's making you feel bad, it doesn't have to be a person in a relationship. It could be someone like a work colleague or a boss. It could be in any relationship, another one. That's really important and this I actually catch people doing it. I'll explain it, then I'll hear them doing it. I said, oh, there it is. And they're like, oh my God, it's.
Speaker 2:We try to use logic to explain somebody else's behavior. So a person without, without, that's not narcissistic or not on that high of a scale, that does not have a personality disorder, right, we'll be like, oh my God, I can't believe this, why are you doing this? This doesn't make sense. Like, why would that person do this? It just doesn't make sense. So when you find yourself trying to use logic and what they're doing doesn't make sense and you're like racking your brain, going why, why? Why you see yourself doing that. Now there's more to this, because it keeps going. So if you're not in an intimate romantic relationship, then it goes even deeper. So if it's a work colleague, you're like just shaking your head. It just doesn't make sense. So that's a really good sign.
Speaker 2:Let me repeat that is, you're trying to explain their behavior with logic. You cannot logic. That's why it's a personality disorder. I don't really like that term, across the board I don't, but in this situation it really does kind of fit. But because it just doesn't make sense what their behaviors and their actions are, because it just doesn't make sense what their behaviors and their actions are and you just can't explain it.
Speaker 2:Okay, so this is what we do next. So now we're with somebody, then all of a sudden we start to explain to them what they're doing wrong. That's the problem, because we're explaining something they already know. And we're explaining to an adult their behavior and their emotions and their actions they already know. They just don't care. They like it when you do that. That's one of the reasons why they act in the way that they do because of the reaction. They get a reaction from me, negative reaction. You're explaining like how many? How did you do that? How many times have I told you this? So if you find another way to look at it is you find like you're almost parenting them by teaching them what's wrong with their behaviors. So if you're doing that, that's when we have to kind of like pull back and say, oh God, no, this is it, they're sucking me in, they're sucking me in, and this can go on for years and we just get frustrated and frustrated and they're playing us. It's a type of manipulation. So watch out for that explanation when you start explaining their behaviors or lack of behaviors or lack of empathy to them. They're adults, they know what they're doing, ok, the other thing that you guys probably have talked about, is watching out, when you're starting in a relationship, of looking for love bombing or sex bombing.
Speaker 2:Okay. So it's really nice, you meet a really charming person and for me it would be a guy that would come up and just they just tell you all the things you want to hear and it feels good, especially those of us who grew up grew up with like traumatic environments or unhealthy environments or unsupported environments from parents for whatever reasons, and so whenever we get some kind of like really wonderful, like validation, praise, and we believe it because they are so good at it Remember they're master manipulators and we fall for it. So that might be love bombing. That happens not always, but typically with men towards women. Okay, it also can happen in same sex relationships. It's not always heterosexual relationships, but it's just what you want to watch out.
Speaker 2:Everyone's situation is unique and with men and I've heard this with a lot of men that I've worked with as patients it's called the sex bombing, where the women just like within one, the second date or so, the sex just comes on full force and they just have sex and sex and sex for weeks and weeks and weeks, and the guy is all involved and sucked in. Then all of a sudden that ends and then the behavior and the actions and the personality that we can't explain start to come out and I can hear them say and then she did this and I can't even believe it. And then she did that and they're sleeping with their best friends. It's just all this behavior starts coming out that was hidden and you got drawn in from sex. So there's sex bombing and there's love bombing.
Speaker 2:But if you can really see those key things coming up, like the sex bombing, love bombing, happening early in the relationship, if it's too good to be true yeah, you know the saying that, that it is and then watch out for and why am I feeling bad? You're making me feel bad when I've done nothing wrong, and then the other one is watch out for that explaining it's a really hard one to stop the other one too. One more is we may have expectations of them to behave differently, like you know, in a more healthy, non-personality disorder manner. Right, wow, and that letting go of those expectations is quite a relief too, because it's just, it just likely isn't going to happen. It doesn't mean that they can't get help and that they can't get changed, but statistically. They really don't want to. They're too afraid to change, and we can talk about that too. But that's a lot of information. I hope you find that like interesting and helpful Absolutely.
Speaker 1:A million percent, but I'm going to throw you a curve ball. What about narcissistic parents and narcissistic grandparents?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a whole nother story. That is like I'm looking at it more of that. You're in this relationship with them and that's where we have to really start to look at as young people you just don't know. You grow up in this, you don't know, and then you're like, don't realize that that's not normal. So you're the one who's breaking the cycle when you go to get help. So then we have to kind of like reparent a little bit, where you start to reparent yourself from a healthier way, and that takes a long time.
Speaker 2:So if this is a situation that you're in, please be patient with it, because you know nothing else. Now, if you're still in a relationship, even as an adult, where you know they're your family and you want to kind of have some kind of a connection with them, there's boundaries. If you don't have boundaries set with them, then you're actually just keeping yourself upset and angry what actual boundary setting is and how it works. So I wanted to get that out in the book so you could actually figure it out, and it's the writing. Part of it allows you to put in your own unique situation so you can see it from that perspective, which is important that we recognize that everyone has their own situation, that not one size fits all of this.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, catherine. I couldn't agree more with that. But for instance, let's take my situation. I was raised by a narcissist who absolutely did not even know the definition of boundary respecting, and when my daughter has special needs, they absolutely did not respect my boundaries when it came to her and that was a really big thing, especially being medically fragile at that point. But I get to talk with a lot of amazing kids and teens and I do a lot of work with kids and teens and we even have a podcast just for teens where their voice feels valued and they're heard and they get to talk unconditionally and even if they're with a panel and they don't agree, at the end we do like a like, almost like a game, where everybody agrees and we say you know what, everybody has an opinion and it's not always going to be in your favor, but we're still respecting each other at the end of the day and it's really important that they feel that way, because a lot of them today don't feel that they have that respect anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's. It's important to understand that we really do. To learn more about human behavior is to see it from different people's perspectives. And when we're coming up through some kind of an abusive relationship in childhood or in a current relationship with somebody and we get out of this is and get out of relationships and we're the ones who are brave enough, it takes a lot of courage and the great Brene Brown says you cannot be courageous and comfortable at the same time. So it takes a lot of discomfort to face yourself and to step up and takes a lot of courage to see and own all of this stuff that's happened to you. It's not necessarily you think something is wrong with you, and there's a book by Bruce Perry and it says it's not what's wrong with you, but what happened to you and when we really the courage part is to step back and to really look at it and own it. Because once we see clearly like everything that's happened to us and for whatever reason, whatever trauma that's going on at any stage of your life, that's when we can really start to do something with it. And the greatest thing is is that no one understands another person as well as someone who has been traumatized as well as someone who has been traumatized. The people who have harmed us the most can be some of our best educators.
Speaker 2:I was in an abusive relationship after my husband passed away. A few years later I got into a bit of a long-term relationship it was not physical, but it was an emotional relationship and got out of it. It was really scary to get out of that relationship, you know. Another thing is that when you set boundaries with people that are not receptive to them and we'll talk about how to do that a little bit if you'd like but is that they? They escalate. And I always warn people if you say no or you put this boundary in place, they are going to get worse, they are going to escalate. You have to prepare for that and that did happen to me. So you take someone who's not physically abusive and then you put the boundary in and you say, okay, I'm leaving, I'm out. We were separated and then he broke into my house and put his hands around my throat. Luckily we got that in taking care of. He ended up in jail for too short of a time.
Speaker 2:You know order of protections. I know that doesn't always work. I can, I understand all of this, but you know, to really to, to see, like, what did that teach me? Oh, my God, that has taught me so much. So it's the perspective I'm taking. I'm not trying to ruminate about it, I'm not.
Speaker 2:You know, I was angry for a really long time. I wanted to get past that, to become more indifferent and then have someone that comes to see me, you know, as a patient. They come in and I'm like, yeah, I get it. So it's called the me too effect, understanding that there's a little bit of that in this book here, that there's a little bit of that in this book here. The Gratitude book, yeah, the Gratitude book. It's wonderful because if you're been hurt in any way and you can sit with somebody that gets it because they've been hurt too. So I'm sorry that anything, that none of this should happen to anybody, but we can use it to help others, we can use it to understand, because other people just don't get the depth of what you're going through. So I think, thank you, yeah, For great question.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm so glad that you're out of that, by the way, and I am so sorry about Carl passing. But I also wanted to say you know, when I sit down with these women and I love these women I just hate the circumstance of how we meet is the fact that I tell them they're like well, you know, I've heard about the fact you had all these surgeries and I'm like one hit, one kick, one punch is one too many. This is not a competition by any means. If they put their hands on you once, it's too much. And I get and understand it and we're going to talk about it. Like you know, it's not a competition between us women or men or whoever is on that side. And you know what. We're survivors because we survived them. At the end of the day, they're still that. They're still their ugly, non-socially acceptable selves, right, and the best revenge is happy life.
Speaker 1:Absolutely A million percent, a million percent. So can you give us some insight on the boundaries? How do we create them?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So we're looking for some empowerment here because it's been crushed out of us, maybe from early childhood, you know, maybe from an adult relationship, teen relationship, at any age. It's just been crushed out of us. They are so good at crushing our self-worth. So this is what we're doing is we're trying to find ourselves, our authentic self. And that's just gone. It's been buried, but it is also still there. It is there. We just kind of have to kind of go excavate and go in deep and find it and bring that out and find the strengths and find everything.
Speaker 2:A lot of people really don't always believe that it's there inside of them, and I know it is. It's there inside all of us. So there's four pillars that I arranged this book in, okay, and the number one is like well, the first question at the first pillar is like why are you here? What brings you here? Why is this important? So you really think about like the but the, the meat of it starts with.
Speaker 2:Pillar one is your values. Okay, so you start with and it's really hard to set a boundary with another person if you don't know what you're okay with and what you're not okay with. That's your values. What am I okay with and what am I not okay with? So it's more than not okay with and we don't know that clearly. Like I am not okay with you yelling at me and I've done nothing wrong, that would be a boundary. I am not okay with you cheating on me, that would be a boundary. With a parent like I had one woman that was her mother-in-law was trying to parent their children, you know, coming and running the show. So there's all different situations, as many as there are people. There's different situations. So, whatever it is, when one person is interfering with your wellbeing, then we have to know what are my values. If you aren't clear about that, the best thing to do is write it down, because when you write it down, it takes thought, it puts it into language and then it puts it into on paper so you can see it. So it's working many parts of the brain and then all of a sudden, more things start to come up. You're like, oh my God, I didn't even think of this. Oh my God, I didn't even think of that. All of a sudden you're like, wow, this is great, I've got all these values. Now, values are your personal values. Sometimes values are family values, but they're both and values are. Some of them are pretty much set in concrete for most of your life, but as we age and we change, we might put some more in and take some out, so they are flexible.
Speaker 2:Also, I have a great example. I had a guy that I'm working with. His teenage daughters was working through the book and when she got into that section he realized that he didn't have good boundaries with his employees. So he had a really bad turnover and they were kind of like taking advantage of the business situation and he went. He came in and the light bulb went off. So the writing really helps. So that's important to start there.
Speaker 2:It's so a lot of people. What they try to do is they try to go and set the boundary with the other person, but they're not really like really clear that this is not okay with me or this is what I want in my life. So that's the first pillar. The second pillar is the actual setting of the boundary. Okay, and this is where we get a little confused too, is that we take the values and we say, okay, it's pretty easy to figure out the boundary setting. So then you're like, okay, this is the person I can give an example, like if you hit me one and done, that might be a boundary right there, all right. So we think that the person we're setting the boundary with crosses the boundary. They don't, we do. We got to understand that the boundary is not for them, it is for us. So if the boundary gets crossed, we're the ones crossing the boundary.
Speaker 2:That's important because a lot of times, like you'll say oh, I was trying to set this boundary with my mother and she keeps pushing it and pushing and it's just not working. All right, why is it not working? Okay, Because the boundary is not for her, it's for you and she, you are letting that happen. So, like you're saying is like it's not a competition. You know, for me the boundary is hit me once and I'm out, that's it, one and done. Now, if I stay and you hit me again, I've crossed my own boundary. So then it's not even a boundary to begin, we don't have it there. So we're like you're crossing my boundary, you shouldn't hit me. No, no, no, I'm choosing to stay, okay, so that's the boundary, is the pillar number two.
Speaker 2:So now, another thing to keep this boundary in place is when we get into the whole section of consequences. All boundaries must have consequences. If, then, I'm talking about boundaries interpersonal boundaries that means between you and another people. It could be a boss, it could be a workmate, any other person. There's also in this book that we can talk about later, about interpersonal boundaries. Those are between you and the relationship that you have with yourself. We can talk about that more if you'd like, but the interpersonal boundaries is what we're focusing on right now, and with interpersonal boundaries, we need to have consequences, all right.
Speaker 2:So, for example, if you do this, fill in the blank, here is the consequence these are your values, these are your boundaries and these are your consequences. This is not for anybody to tell you how to run your life. It's from your life and your values and your culture, whatever that looks like. So the consequence, for example, is like if you hit me, I am leaving you. That's pretty good match, okay, all right. If the consequences look my bedtime's at 10 o'clock and could you stop calling me. If you don't stop calling me, then I'm, I'm ending our relationship. That sounds a little odd. It could be. Maybe the boundary is I need to turn my phone off or whatever you want to do, you know, to stop that from happening.
Speaker 2:Now I know people are pushing your boundaries and I know that we can't always put these consequences in place, especially when we're afraid for our life. I understand that this is like if I put this boundary in with him, he'll kill me. I get that. But then we have to look at the bigger picture. How can we get into a place where we're safe? Or we can start to put these boundaries in place, and that's going to take time, but we still have to not dismiss our values and our self-worth, so we can get to that point All right.
Speaker 2:And then the last section talks about where we sabotage all of this, how the emotions get in the way. The biggest there's a bunch of them in there, but the biggest ones two of them are guilt and shame. And if you're a Brene Brown fan, you know all of this. The guilt is I am doing something wrong and you're shaking your head. And then the shame is I have no, I don't think very highly of myself. It's low self-worth. So those are the things that we want to build up. So then we can maintain these boundaries and these consequences. So that's kind of the gist of this book.
Speaker 1:It's step-by-step laid out, and it really was designed specifically so you could see it from your perspective. I cannot wait to read this book. I have a lot of people who ask me and I would love your insight on it how does, for instance, you have somebody who's a narcissist and they have fantastic parents, they have wonderful parents. How do they become a narcissist?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really good question, because we don't really know specifically whether there's some like what they would call brain damage or neurodiversity. We don't know for sure. We can't really look at a child's brain when they're born and say, oh nice baby, can we study their brain? You know? No, you want to love your child and we don't. We don't. We can't really do research on what's going on in the brain.
Speaker 2:But if you look at anybody that has some differences on any spectrum because narcissism is a spectrum is that, is there something in their brain that we just can't see or that we don't know? And we're, again, we're trying to explain that with logic. If you, if you look at someone who's on the autism spectrum, we're trying to explain that with logic. If you look at someone who's on the autism spectrum, you know, we accept that it is, we work with it. We don't say, oh, you need to change and be like the rest of us, because that's just not how their brain is wired. So maybe their brains are wired. There are books that talk about this, about you know, are they born this way or are they developed this way, or does it? You know? Um, there's a part of the brain that's called the amygdala right and it's in the center part of the brain, in the limbic system, and one of the things that um we can see is that tends to be a little bit smaller than someone who isn't a narcissist. So their empathy is lacking, their um ability for remorse is lacking or non-existent, and that is other parts of the brain contributed to that. We really don't know, like we can't always say it's just one part, but we have seen in research that that tends to be smaller. Now we don't know if that just didn't develop properly or because of the social environment. I mean, you think of someone who grows up in a neighborhood that's really strong gang oriented. You know they're just trained from day one, or even terrorist day one, just to not have empathy.
Speaker 2:Why is it that this person so we're, we're lacking empathy, meaning that knowing what it's like. There's many definitions of it. One of my favorites is knowing what it's like to being on the receiving end of this. And I actually said that to my abuser and I said do you know what it's like to be on the receiving end of this? And that was the one time he didn't like blow up and just turn it into some big drama he goes. I have no idea. It was like the most refreshing, honest thing he said to me. I have no idea and I wasn't the only one that he had behavioral problems with you know, and he just, and I was like, wow, that was like the most refreshing thing that you've ever said to me. So they don't really care, or maybe they do know, I don't know. So that I, we don't know, it's usually some kind of environmental thing that is bringing it up, so there's all sorts of reasons, and maybe the parents are more narcissistic and they hide it and you don't know it.
Speaker 1:Well, let me play devil's advocate. What about when people say, well, it's not really their fault that they're a narcissist, so does that mean that we should give them a pass, because I can't? I can't give somebody a pass because, like, if you're being the black sheep, you didn't ask to be the black sheep, you're not asked to be raised in that environment. You grow up in an environment with a narcissist who only uses you for their own manipulative gain. And then people say, well, you know, maybe it's not their fault that they're this way, maybe they had a bad childhood, or whatever the case is. But if we can break the cycle, how come they can't contain themselves? And why do we have to give them a pass? And then you know like we have to live with it for the rest of our lives. We have to deal with all the trauma, recorrection and recovery, for the rest of our lives and people feel bad for the ones who caused it.
Speaker 2:I agree with you Absolutely Because it is everything we do as long as you know we are of.
Speaker 2:You know sound mind, reasonably sound mind. You know that intellectually sound, I should say not necessarily emotionally sound, because these are not emotionally sound people, is it? Everything we do is intention, is with an intention, even if there's not an intention, there's an intention there, and even those of us who have grown up in some pretty bad childhood raising, we still know how to feel bad. We still know how to have some kind of empathy. We can develop that Again, it's still a choice, because if someone who is a severe narcissist on pretty high, you know they're going to be in prison I mean prison for life, because they're just not they're going to keep getting in trouble and keep getting caught and maybe they can't change and maybe they just don't want to change Again. These are things that we don't quite understand, but we do know that working with with high like this, this high scale of like psychopaths, psychopathy that score pretty hard, high on that test, really have no desire to change.
Speaker 2:And they'll tell you that this is just, this is the way it is. They can't see the world in any other way. They can't see it the way we see it. So, but the people that aren't quite that bad. It's still a choice, I agree. It's still a choice.
Speaker 2:But one of the reasons, I believe, is that if I stop behaving this way, everyone's going to get me. It's almost like a wall of protection. If I hurt you and get you, then you can't hurt and get me. So that's why they can't let their guard down. So that would be my.
Speaker 2:My abuser was. I knew that his guard was. He was. He was good in a lot of ways. So they're not all bad. We do know that.
Speaker 2:You know, as long as you're not even talking about serial killers. The neighbors always said, oh, you're such a nice guy, I can't even imagine that. So you know there's parts of them that are good, and that's what we're always trying to grasp on, grasp onto and then ignore the part that's really dangerous and harmful. But they it's just. If I let that wall down, then I'm vulnerable and they can't be vulnerable Like you and I can be vulnerable. It change takes vulnerability. That means we have to see it, we have to own it. We have to speak it safely. You come to a counselor, tell their tell your truth. This right here, this podcast alone, is just allowing people to hear other people tell the truth. It's so important. So those of us who are healing from this have the courage. We're actually stronger than they are because we can speak our truth. They think of it as a fear-based lifestyle. Everything they do is based in fear. We think it's right, great way to look at that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, think about that for a minute. Everything they do, if I'm attacking you verbally and I'm like abusing you, I'm I'm abusing your time. You know, another great sign of abuse is people that abuse your time. If they say I'll be there at four and they show up at five and people don't know that time abuse is a type of abuse. It is abuse, yes. So watch out for that one. That's what his mind did. He did that he'll. He'd show up two hours late for everything and then if you called him out on it, he'd just lose his shit, you know. So we have to be really careful about that. But knowing that the everything they do is in fear, everything.
Speaker 1:So how does a? Because I get a lot of teens and they ask these questions. I love your perspective on it.
Speaker 2:How does a narcissist pick who's going to be the black sheep and who's going to be the golden child? The narcissist pick of like yeah, as far as ask me that question again, so I'm clear like how they're picking somebody, or like the parents.
Speaker 1:If you have two narcissistic parents and you have two children, how do they decide? Okay, you're going to be the black sheep and I'm going to blame everything that you have nothing to do with on you. You're going to get ridiculed and blamed for everything and you're going to be the golden child and the. The spectrum is night and day between the siblings. They don't get to speak to each other because it's like they're puppets and the parents are holding the strings. So how does a narcissist pick who is going to be in what role for them? How do they come up with that?
Speaker 2:Well, if you're talking about, like parents and young people, it's really like, how does the child present? So if you have a very happy child and they're kind of bubbly, or if you have a child that maybe has, you know, isn't feeling that great and they're just a little bit not as happy, they're going to pick, based on the child's personality, what they can manipulate and they're not even consciously aware that they're doing that. Here's an example I have a brother that was just brilliant in school, just did wonderfully you know, not that my other siblings didn't, but they. He just had a gift that other people didn't have. So they saw that really clearly and that was it. He was the golden child, literally the golden child, and actually, believe it or not, that messed him up because they never really saw him for who he was and they never because it's like, oh, you know him out into ivy league, schools and everything, instead of just letting him just be the kid. He was always the golden child, so those expectations on him never just I have to meet this all the time. That was really hard on him for like for myself, who just didn't quite fit the mold of what a young woman should be many, many years ago, and I didn't, you know I, just of what a young woman should be many, many years ago. And I didn't, you know I, just I was kind of athletic, I like to do what I like to do. I didn't want to follow the herd and my, my parents wanted me to get married and have children Cause that's what you do and I was like no, and just wanted to do my own thing. So they treated me completely differently, you know they treated me like I wasn't smart or you know they were just like, just just, you're just going to have to figure it out for your own and kind of left me out there. Now that made me also very strong. It's not all bad, right, but that's.
Speaker 2:But with a, with a person looking for a victim for an intimate relationship, or even in business, where you have somebody in your office, they're looking for someone with their body language. So body language is something we talk about a lot. In my practice, and some of the work I do in public speaking, is, if you have low self-worth, like you don't think highly of yourself, you're going to get that back. What we put out into the universe, what we've learned, comes back to us. So if I'm an angry person, I'm going to get an angry person. If I don't think highly of myself, I'm going to get someone who doesn't treat me very well because they it's like they can see it in your body language. So, for example, if you're thinking about this right now and where are your shoulders, you know, when you're walking, it's one thing. When you're home relaxing on the couch watching a movie, but when you're walking through the grocery store, what is your body language? Are your shoulders rounded forward, right, and as your head down a little bit, are you kind of closed off? And then they can look at you and see that, or ours, your chest up, as your kind of shoulder blades, pinch them together a little bit and then look up and look at people in the eye. That just physically shows confidence and I don't want to mess with that, because you're not the wounded, injured one You're going to. You're going to. You have self-worth and self-confidence, so I'm not going to go near that. So they try to go after the person that doesn't feel very highly about themselves.
Speaker 2:Now I don't want you to say you know what's wrong with me, because this is how, especially women, how we're brought up. It's like. You can't have an opinion. You that if you are assertive and you stand your ground, then you're aggressive. You've been called every name in the book, right?
Speaker 2:So we have all these negative labels for women that we have two or three for men. We have thousands for women to push you down, push you down, push you down and keep you in your place. Our culture does it, our parents do it. Everything it's generational, it's not. We're not looking at blame here and so now we're finally in a place where women can make their own money, own their own house, pay their own bills, raise their kids, do it all on their own, which is it's sad. I hate to see that happen, but we, those labels don't work on us anymore. You know you can call me everything in the. You know if you look too pretty, all of a sudden you got called really negative words. We just don't care, we don't care, it doesn't matter. Those things bounce right off us. So the world is changing, where we are trying to be really good role models for all people, no matter what, and start with body language.
Speaker 2:So here's a really interesting thing we looked at a study where I can't remember what prison it was in California. So you've got the elite of the personality disorders that are just no remorse and they're watching this videotape this is many years ago of students crossing the road, very, very busy from the university center to their cars, busy from the the university center to their cars, and I think this was pre-phone, so they weren't really staring at their phones a lot. But so the prisoners were um told they wouldn't get any trouble, they could say whatever they wanted, it wouldn't go against them. Why, who would you pick? What would you do to them and why? And they said they did it solely on body language. Really, yep, and looking at what? That? This is the person. This is why it just came to them naturally, like that. So for me, I think, if you have a lot of shame and not good thoughts about yourself, your body language is going to represent that.
Speaker 1:Now, that's not something that's easy to change All of a sudden one day I'm like oh'm fine, my self-worth is fine.
Speaker 2:This takes years and lifelong practice to yes. Yeah, I think of it as being in training, you know yes think of it. You don't just all of a sudden decide to run a marathon. You have to train for it and's. It's a lifelong practice and it's kind of very satisfying, it's very empowering, but it definitely isn't going to change if the body language doesn't change. So keep, keep an eye on that in yourself and try it. Practice it in the grocery store. It's the best place to do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, your books, the mental health books. They're aimed at finding seekers of happiness. You're trying to help them. See, I tell people all the time, even if you think your light isn't flickering anymore, it still is. It's still flickering and you know what? It could start a wildfire. You just have to find it. And it sounds like these are what your books are looking for is to help ignite that wildfire within everybody. So you just want to help all these other people. What inspired you to start writing these workbooks that can help so many people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just, I hear the same things over and over and over again from people. You know the low self-worth and not kind to yourselves and not being able to have a relationship, a healthy relationship, with somebody you love that may be abusing you or crossing some boundaries. You know, it doesn't always have to be extreme. Like you know, I really love my mom and everything but this one thing drives me crazy and what that does is if we don't kind of put in these boundaries and see our self-worth and think kindly and be kind to ourselves, then we spend a lot of time being angry, yes, and we're upset with that person all the time. I don't want to be upset with the people in my life. I don't want to be upset with anybody. So if I'm upset with you, it's because I need to pull back and say what's going on here, what's important to me, and then then I want to put that in place. So this is so common.
Speaker 2:The cultivating gratitude book and graciousness really talks about a lot of things that we've lost. You know we can start a gratitude journal. That's great, but this goes into depth about, like, what we're doing that's causing us some really harmful energy. So we get there. So one of the things is you can see where people get really energized when they're gossiping, when they're angry, when they're explosive, when they're being self-righteous, when they're gaslighting. You know, that's what we call a really unhealthy energy, because it is you're energized from it. But there's the healthy energies, which is when we're doing something to accomplish something that takes effort. So like, maybe you're starting an exercise program that takes effort, maybe you're going to school that takes effort, maybe you're learning a new skill or switching a job All of those things. It's energizing. Even writing these books anybody out there who writes books it's a love. Like, oh, this is great. And then the next thing you're just losing your mind. But it's such an effort. And then, after it gets published, it's still an effort to really just be really happy with everything and how to present it. So that effort is also energizing because it's satisfying and accomplishing it. So those are two really important energies.
Speaker 2:That's in the gratitude book to see the difference. Because if I'm gossiping or I'm vengeful or I'm gaslighting or I'm blaming everybody for my problems, that's very energizing. But it takes no effort, zero, boom, right, and that's very damaging to us. So we want to switch the perspective of like how am I accountable? What am I doing? What am I doing with myself in my own relationship? How am I being harmful? So it's not just about the other person. Where do I show up in this and then not judge yourself or attack yourself, but be kind to yourself, because we're learning and this is hard. This is why people don't want help, because but it is wonderful. Once you get to that point, it's like wow, look at what I'm learning, look at what I can do. No matter how old you are, no matter what you've been through, we can make these small little improvements and then we're available as role models to other people, which is very, very important in our journey.
Speaker 1:Yes. When you have someone who's just starting out, Catherine, what advice would you give them? Based on your professional experiences? How would you tell them that the first step is still in the right direction and a single step still takes you going forward? Where do they begin?
Speaker 2:I begin with letting them observe actually their breathing. Observe actually their breathing Really yes, number one, breathing. Number two seeing how you treat yourself. So when someone's sitting in my office or anybody just watch, most people are not aware of it when I point it out and when their anxiety comes up, imagine coming in and you're talking to a professional. Hopefully you're developing a good rapport with that person and all of a sudden you know this is really uncomfortable to talk about, especially to someone that you've just met and your anxiety is up. It's just high, okay. So when the anxiety comes up, the breathing gets shallow and sometimes it's like you'll see a gasp, but you can actually see them get tight here and here Again body language. So if your anxiety is high, we need to regulate it, and we can't regulate anxiety in any way without breathing. So anxiety is directly related to a shallow breath. There's many, many reasons for anxiety. It's just that's.
Speaker 2:What we look at first is getting the breathing. So then what we can do is say we can give you a breathing exercise and for the next week or two before you come into your next appointment, your homework is just to pay attention to your breathing, about breathwork. But people will come back into their next session. They're like, oh my God, I had no idea. Or they'll come back and say, oh my God, I was breathing. I you know it's not the cure all, it's just not it fix everything, but it's bringing awareness into yourself and in your body, especially a traumatized person, and that's really scary. So we want to start really slow. Just notice and I'll do that in a session I'll say notice how your breath is shallow right now, and sometimes I'll ask them to take a breath and I like to focus on the exhale, because the exhale lowers the heart rate, and I'll say, okay, through your mouth and you'll see somebody go. They just are. So don't aware of what the tension is going on in the body. So that's what we do.
Speaker 2:That's the very, very first thing we do is we just bring non-judgmental awareness of what's happening in your breathing. That's number one. And then we give you some time with that, because that's not scary, we can do it, we can do it at our pace, and then, as we move on, our breathing gets better and healthier, we can get deeper into the gut type of breathing, and then all of that starts to change. The next step that we'll jump into is really paying attention to how you talk to yourself, and you'll see it right there and they'll be putting themselves down and that actually, when we start to discuss that, people will actually come to tears because it's just so heartbreaking, because they don't think that they're worthy or they didn't notice how bad it was. And that is number two. Those are the, and there we go, in small steps, always small bites. We don't want to overwhelm anybody at your pace. So those are the main things that we start out with.
Speaker 1:So, with all of this wealth of knowledge, let me ask you a personal question Do you have any kind of specific tradition or practice that you do to help keep Carl's spirit alive?
Speaker 2:such a hard worker. I remember when he died. You know the grieving process, I was so mad. I was so mad.
Speaker 1:Like how could you?
Speaker 2:believe me, you know we I did everything we could fix, we just couldn't do it. It was stage four. I'm so sorry, yeah, and I don't think of it that way anymore, because you know I was mad, I was scared, I was on my own, you know, trying to rebuild myself, ended up in that second relationship to help me out, and he was just just a, you know, not a good thing, but you know it all worked out. In the end I ended up back in school and building everything up.
Speaker 2:But what happens over time is that, um, even with the, with other people in my life that weren't so kind and um that have passed on, is you really start to shift into everything they brought into your life? I, that's all I ever think about him. I think about, like, what a kind guy he was, how hard he worked, everything wonderful about him, and those are the stories they're told. That's what you want to keep alive for the next generations. Even with, like, some of my family members that weren't very kind, they hit some, you know, that are no longer alive. They had some really unique things, like they were gifted cooks and I'm like I learned so much. So, like I said, there's some things that we can in our memories is just remember the things that we learned and the gifts that we got.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. Heather, I have to tell you you smile when talking about Carl. Your eyes smile, your face lights up Like that's so beautiful, it's so sweet and it was just so interesting and watching your expressions on your face talk about Carl yeah that's what we should do is no matter what our memories are.
Speaker 2:You know, all of the people that have gone before us have made it, no matter how good or bad they are, have made it possible for us to be where we're at, and we get to choose what we want to do with it. We do need help. I don't expect anybody to do this on your own, but that's why it's important to be grateful, and there's some things I am grateful for from the, my ex that was not nice, that had taught me some things. You know, there are some things that I'm grateful for now that I just go outside and you know, grateful for the weather, and to really start to shift perspective and pay attention to yourself and self observe about whether you're not happy and why is that happening. What are we doing? How are we contributing that?
Speaker 2:And again, this isn't like a one and done and we can fix our problems. We have to look at this from a bigger picture. What kind of help do we need? What kind of support do we need? And it's step-by-step and it can be very overwhelming for some people and I understand that. So, all of us I know, you and myself and anybody who's part of the healing process, who have been through some really severe stuff. Again, it's not a competition. It's being able to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it. What can I do? How can I help? Right, yeah, be that role model model. We need to see people that have survived and thrived and are happy. We need those role models. So thank you for yourself, for being one of those role models oh, thank you.
Speaker 1:Tell everybody where to find your books and where we can find you. I'm going to link everywhere and then I'm going to ask a favor. So, so, where can we find you?
Speaker 2:Well, you can find me at Catherine with a C, catherine G, clevelandcom, and you can find me all my social media is Catherine G, cleveland. Don't forget the G, g as in grace and it's. I'll put the links up to the books. You can find them anywhere, anywhere that you shop Mostly I'm I'm an Amazon shopper myself, so we'll put some Amazon links up there. But anywhere you can go, even the library might have it. They can get it because they can go through the library but the one you can get an ebook. But the one thing these books that I really like about them is that they're in your hand and there's lots of space to write. There's lots of space for artwork, coloring. It gets your brain going. I love that, like what we're talking about, like going and finding that fire, that light inside the intuition, all of that work. So I do recommend the hard copy, or, you know, the soft cover, hard copy so you can really get intimate. The book should be an intimate experience for you.
Speaker 1:That's, that was the goal, yeah yeah, all right, it's time for my favorite. Can I ask you to come back and talk with me again?
Speaker 2:oh, I would love to. I would love to come back. The next book, like I said before, is um kinder to myself. I think that's one of the most important ones and I would love to come back anytime. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Oh, I can't thank you enough. We're going to link everywhere to find Dr Catherine Cleveland in our show notes and I am hoping that we have now have a new relationship and I will have her around and often on. So I thank you for your time this morning and look forward to having you back soon.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I look forward to it. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:See, that was easy.
Speaker 2:Oh, you were wonderful. Oh my God, that's the best one.
