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A Contagious Smile Podcast
A Contagious Smile is a powerful platform dedicated to uplifting and empowering special needs families and survivors of domestic violence. Through heartfelt stories, we shine a light on the journeys of extraordinary individuals who have overcome unimaginable challenges. Their triumphs serve as a testament to resilience and strength, inspiring others to rediscover their own inner light. Each episode features candid interviews with survivors, advocates, and experts who provide valuable resources and insights to support those on their own paths to healing and empowerment. Join us as we celebrate the power of resilience, the beauty of shared stories, and the unstoppable spirit of those who turn adversity into hope. Let us guide you in rekindling your spirit, because every smile tells a story of courage and transformation.
A Contagious Smile Podcast
Narc Narc Who's There, Help, I'm Gasping For Air Escaping the Shadows: Overcoming Narcissistic Abuse, Healing Family Ties, and Embracing Self-Worth TRIGGER WARNING
TRIGGER WARNING Escaping the shadow of narcissistic abuse is a journey fraught with challenges, but it's a journey worth taking. Our dear friend Dana and I share our personal tales of navigating toxic family dynamics, shedding light on the insidious nature of narcissists who twist reality to appear as victims. By examining the roles of the black sheep and scapegoat, we reveal how these individuals manipulate perceptions to maintain control. Join us as we courageously recount our experiences, aiming to empower you to recognize and protect yourself from similar manipulations.
Drawing strength from real-life accounts like David Pelzer's "A Child Called It," we confront the emotional scars left by childhood abuse and the resilience needed to break free from generational trauma. Our stories highlight the determination to forge a new path, creating loving environments for our children despite toxic upbringings. We reflect on the struggle for validation and the importance of rejecting harmful behaviors learned from those who were supposed to nurture us, while also cherishing the values instilled by positive role models.
Our discussion touches on the complexities of healing family dynamics, addressing emotional challenges such as codependency and anxious attachment. The relentless quest for self-worth amid societal negativity and parental criticism underscores the necessity of self-acceptance and personal growth. We explore the power of truth and connection, encouraging you to find love and support beyond traditional sources. Whether you're seeking to understand narcissistic behaviors or searching for solace in shared experiences, our conversation offers invaluable insights into the strength required to overcome and thrive.
Good afternoon and welcome to another episode of A Contagious Smile Unstoppable. However, this is a very special series with one of my amazing, beautiful friends. I love Dana so much she's going to think I'm stalking her, but she knows I'm not. We are doing a series about narcissistic behavior, narcissistic abuse, people, partners, the black sheep, scapegoat, the golden child. We are breaking it down and explaining it firsthand. Now you can pick up a book and read it. You can go and talk to somebody when everybody needs therapy, but learning it and living it totally different, completely different. Do you agree? Do you think that's right?
Speaker 2:I agree a hundred percent. I'm that girl that believes like I'll only go to a female gynecologist Cause I mean I'm sure there's lots of males out there that are good, but you got to really experience it to really get it. So, yeah, this is kind of the same aspect, same category.
Speaker 1:Well, I can't thank you enough for doing this Well I can't thank you enough for doing this.
Speaker 2:I'm always on board with anything that you do. It's startling to me how similar our experiences have been but I know that you have. The same experience too is that when we're out talking to people or on social media, everybody seems to have these same experiences with narcissists. There's variations here and there, but it's eerie how they all use the same tactics, the same verbiage, even to affect the same results, and we all fall for it and we're all lured into it. So we've got to get the information out there to help people, you know, not fall into the traps that we've fallen into and to be aware of when they encounter somebody like this.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I'm going to give a teaser and tell you I cannot and will not divulge because I just love her. But I know the name of her prequel coming up in. Oh my God, it is amazing, it is so amazing. But she's got one on me, because she's the only person who's ever seen the new cover of my prequel coming out yeah, and, and it is it.
Speaker 2:People is phenomenal. I, I, I am actually really, really excited about this. I, I want to be like the first one to get my copy and read this book thank you.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about you and I were both a black sheep.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm still the black sheep, but yeah, I embrace it fully and wholly now.
Speaker 1:Right, and what a lot of you don't realize is, the black sheep is really the one that gets blamed for everything.
Speaker 2:Even when you're not around like you could be out of state and you're still getting blamed for something that transpired within that environment when you weren't even there Exactly. You don't even have to be a part of something to be blamed. But the kicker in all of it, and what makes us unique as black sheep, is not just that we are blamed, but we are blamed because that narcissist or if there's multiple of them, as the case was for me in childhood they know that you've caught on to them. That's why you're ostracized, because you are the one that sees the truth and you won't let it go. You are calling it out Even if you're not actually voicing it. You know and they know, you know, so you got your credibility has to be shut down to stop them from being exposed for who they really are.
Speaker 1:Right. They actually will go above and beyond to play the victim and how we, as the Black Sheep, did these horrific things to them. And they never accept accountability. They never accept blame. They love to criticize but can't take criticism. It is amazing how you could just you know, like, for instance, if they got into a car accident and you weren't even there, you weren't even in the vehicle you're going to get blamed because, let me guess, you were on the phone or you sent them a text message. It's going to come back on you. It will end up being your fault, and the reason that they slander you so much to any and everyone, like even to authorities, is to ruin your I guess your perception of others as an honest person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, people cannot think that you're truthful. They have to believe that you are a liar, so that when it's not if, but when you open your mouth and when you tell the truth to whoever it is, nobody will believe you. And this is the common theme among anybody who's ever been abused, anybody in a domestic violence situation, anybody who's been raised by married to friends with a narcissist. You are the liar, you are the cheat, you are the whatever it is, because then they look like you know the victims that they're trying to look like and they have the fake tears and they have the sad faces and they're so good at it and nobody will believe you. And it's so frustrating.
Speaker 1:It is, and they will pawn you, like I literally felt like I was a currency, but he only needed me when he needed something and that's when the currency was necessary. And so that's when he would bring me around. And if I was against partaking in like the other women, he would bring around and I let him know that I was literally threatened, you know, and it would be massive, massive threats, and I knew he'd follow through. But then he would tell people all these horrific things and it made like I couldn't understand, I couldn't wrap my head around. You're supposed to be the person, when we're kids, where you're supposed to have that parent who's supposed to protect us and shield us and teach us the necessary ways of life and prepare us for the next phase of life. And, like I say all the time, we should not, as adults, have to recover from our childhood. And that is what so many of us are doing, and I don't care what level it's on. If you've been through it, you've been through it. That's it. Like it's not a competition.
Speaker 1:I tell that to people all the time. When I work with women of domestic violence, I'm like, oh, he only hit me a couple of times. Once is enough, it's too many, that's enough. Like if he hits you once, you need to go, you need to get out, and we're going to make that happen. So it's dumbfounding to me how they just have a two-face. They're like literally have a mask that they put on for the outside world and they care so much with these people who never will know them in a year, two years, five years, what they think of them. They care so much about that perception that behind closed doors they are just evil I mean really evil.
Speaker 2:Well, that's who they truly are, at the core of their being. And you know, the sad part is and I'm just going to throw this in because a lot of people will ask me and and I I'm sorry my mind goes in tangents you know this about me, but I want to clarify with your story that you were just telling that was your father. Correct that. Yes, with the women, because I think a lot of people might interpret that as you know, maybe your former husband or somebody you were romantically involved with. No, this was a father. This was, this is a father doing this to a daughter and, and and expecting involvement in his sexual escapades. And that is. That is the most horrific thing and I think that needs to be clarified. But that's the thing about narcissists is that when they are your parents, people will turn to you and be like, well, were they abused? As if that excuses or explains. But I have an issue with that because I'm going to say two things on this One. Yes, my mother and stepfather my stepfather was essentially, you know, my father growing up. I'd known him since I was a year old. But, yes, they were both horrifically abused. But does that mean that it's okay, then for them to have abused me, because again, here's where the black sheep thing comes in they chose to abuse me. They chose not to abuse their child that they had together and this happens so often. You had that in your family dynamic.
Speaker 2:One of my I don't want to say it's a favorite book, but one of the more riveting stories that I have heard about this. It came out, I think, in 1991, it's called A Child, called it it was, yeah, david Peltzer, I believe is his name the author about his true life experience. And he was the middle child, the third child out of five children altogether, and he was the only one that was abused. And the father knew that the mother was abusing him. His siblings saw, witnessed that the mother was abusing him. His siblings saw, witnessed, left him even to be abused. And God, I'm getting chills just thinking about it, because there were parts of that book that were I mean, one chapter. It took me six tries before I could even get through it because it was so horrific.
Speaker 2:But the fact that a human being can choose, that I don't care what your past was, but that's proof that you're past it. Yes, there's something called generational trauma. Yes, I am the cycle breaker and I think I go back eight generations of being able to identify trauma on my mom's side of the family. But that does not excuse it, that does not permit it. And why is it that they could choose not to abuse my brother? Why is it that I, when I finally came to the conclusion that maybe I would try being a mother? Because, honestly, I was terrified. I didn't want to have kids because I was so afraid I might be like my mother I had a son. No child has ever been more loved People will argue with me but no child has ever been more loved than my son because I made sure he knew his love. I made a choice, so I call BS on anybody who I don't. I think it's actually invalidating to ask and I get asked it all the time were your parents abused.
Speaker 2:Did they have trauma? Yes, and they put their unhealed trauma on me. They chose me to be the one, and when I saw through that crap at a very young age and I was, can you tell? I was a tenacious and feisty little one. I got my ass beat, I got diminished and, my God, I was a little girl and they stopped at nothing. There were no limits, nothing they wouldn't do to make sure to squash every bit of my soul and my being, to shut me up.
Speaker 2:Right Boy, look at me now and I've been on podcasts all over the world just like you, writing books and speaking out and advocating. They don't talk to me. You know what they do, though. They go around smearing my name. They haven't had anything to do with me in years by their choice, by the way, because I was willing to forgive the issues just to have a mother in my life. But I'm bipolar. I'm crazy. They love the crazy theme. You know I also have heard this is a new one.
Speaker 2:You'll love this and actually this is a little glimpse into because I'm writing you know the sequel to Gasping for Air as well, but I am a product of rape. Now, all of a sudden, I'm 48 years old and now she's claiming she has nothing to do with me because I was a product of rape. I'm like well, the rapist texts me every single day. The rapist and I have had a wonderful loving relationship. He's an amazing father to me, thank you. But it's like, really, you're going to say something so vile and disgusting to excuse your dissociation from me. But you know what I? I? There was a time, even just a handful of years ago, when I would be curled up in fetal position, maybe with a bottle of some particular thing in my shower, sobbing and crying and wishing I was dead and wondering why it didn't exist. And I know a lot of people have been there and and it's hard.
Speaker 1:It is hard. It is hard and that's why you and I have broken the cycle. We have broken the cycle. You know I, I grew up in this narcissistic environment I don't call it a home because it wasn't and it's, you know. And then I was in an extremely abusive marriage while pregnant and I've never laid a hand on Faith and she'll tell you fast and quick, in a hurry my mother has never screamed at me, she's never yelled at me. If I'm upstairs and she's downstairs, I might be like hey, faith, you come here. But that's the extent of it and you can get your point across. And I told her words hurt and they will be there when you're much older and I don't want you to ever go back and think why did my mom say that to me? Because I know what that's like. Those stay with you and just when you're not even thinking about it, one of them's going to pop in your mind Like, just you know, I wish you were the baby I miscarried. And I heard that at nine and it was like you still hear that. You know, there, there's so much and it doesn't matter because we broke the cycle. I will not allow them to have the excuse that. Oh well, we were abused.
Speaker 1:My grandparents, who I talk about all the time, were the best human beings on the planet and I remember being very young and asking why is your son act the way he does? And my grandma looked at me and she goes. I could ask you the same question. Then I said I don't understand. You raised your son and look how he acts. And she says well, I could say the same thing about them for you. And I didn't get it till I was much older, because I live by their values and beliefs, the way that my grandparents were, and I look at how my biological brother, who I have no relationship with he's the golden child and my my biological parents and I'm like thank God, cause I would have turned out just like them and it's so unbelievably scary. You know, I'm the first to jump in and defend someone. I'm the first to jump in and defend somebody if it's going to get violent, but I could never raise my hand to someone that I care or that I love.
Speaker 1:And when you sit there and my bio dad would do things like he would bring his girlfriend on a weekend trip that I took faith on before surgery and I always drove, and that was something that I had to do after the abuse I endured. I always drove, because I got left out on the highway in the middle of the night and dumped off on the side. So I've always been the person that has to be in control of driving. And literally the next day there's a knock on our room and we had different rooms. I stayed with Faith in one room and I was not, because I don't think it's appropriate, and he had his own room and I've knocked on the door.
Speaker 1:Faith goes to open it and there is the girl of the week, or flavor of the week, or whatever you want to call it, who happens to be my hand therapist. Oh, yeah, yeah. And so I'm like what are you doing here? And her very young toddler. Did I mention that she was younger than me? Yeah, so she's younger than me and it was like that's disgusting. And I know, yeah, so she's younger than me and it was like that's disgusting and I know this is horrible, but if you ever saw the movie big daddy, immediately I'm like thinking about that movie where the little boy goes is that the man with the old balls?
Speaker 1:you know, yeah, because this he did his 70s and she was in her 30s. That's, to me, is just what. To each their own.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, but that was my grandfather. My grandfather was a tremendous narcissist. I drunk and a narcissist and abusive and wielded a gun, put my mother and her two brothers when they were little in the bathtub and held a gun to their head and was just going to get rid of everybody if he couldn't bring home a different woman every night and screw her on the couch right when, with everybody in the house sleeping, and he maced my grandmother once and, and, yeah, all his women. When he died, he was probably in his late sixties, early seventies, and his current girlfriend was younger than me and I'm his granddaughter, so that was a little icky and she had three babies, like toddler and babies that they all inherited, his insurance and everything. He left nothing to.
Speaker 2:You know, here I was his grandchild. He had one other grandchild and left nothing to grandma, left nothing to my mother and her brothers. But that's a narcissist for you. It's all about them, as long as they are getting pleasure and their ego is getting fulfilled and they feel good about themselves. 100%. They die alone though, though, don't they?
Speaker 1:yeah and he literally dropped off the I don't want to tell the story that he dropped off the girl, the little girl, so that they could go out. And he was texting me. I was like this kid's crying, I can't get her to stop crying. This is not the weekend that I planned for, yeah, and he just was like, well, we're still in a movie. Faith had asked him to go to a movie with her for the longest time. He wouldn't go, but he's in a movie with this girl, this woman, whatever, this younger girl. And so I have all this proof. Like faith is hysterical.
Speaker 1:You know, you and I were talking about how she's just, we just love her, and we go to dinner and he had called and Faith had answered the phone and he was like where's your mother? And she's like, oh, we're waiting to get a table, we're getting something to eat, and little do I know they show up. She didn't do it intentionally, she was young, you know, she was still like not even a teenager at this point. And they show up and I was like so they lean over and there's like affection between the two of them and Faith has my phone and she's taking pictures, like she's literally the smartest little thing. She's taking pictures and the kid is dropping food on the floor, picking up food off the floor, eating it. They don't care whatever, and I have all this proof.
Speaker 1:Well, when I finally showed my bio mom, she's like well, there's two sides to every story. What I mean, I bet you, I had pictures of him eating with like 50 other women and they're feeding him and you know, and he's laughing and smiling in these pictures with them and he doesn't know the pictures are being taken. But he doesn't ever smile or anything with faith. In any picture he doesn't do anything with her. But we were his excuses because we had no relationship with his wife. So he would say I'm going out with the girls for dinner and she's like fine, bye, because she didn't want to be with us. And he would wow, show us up and come to a restaurant with another woman and a lot of times yeah and we have all the pictures.
Speaker 2:Unbelievable, but it's believable because of my experience with narcissists. But that just goes to show how atrocious their behavior is. And again it speaks to even what you know well, everything that we've shared, that they don't care who you are and they don't care an innocent two-year-old daughter, grandchild, you could be a teenager, you could be any age, any relation to them. They don't care. It's about them. The end, that's all it is absolutely a million percent.
Speaker 1:They will actually literally go. And just you know it's what can you do for me? And if you can't do anything, I don't have anything for you. And he would grab hold of me with these little nuggets of praise that I never, ever get, like you know, when he was involved with this one particularly and it all started because he needed to get something he left in my car and he's like where are you? And I said I'm in physical therapy down the street. He's like how long are you going to be? I don't know, I just got here, just I just got here. And he's like oh, I'm coming up there, I need to get your keys, I need to get into the car. I can't believe you. Let me leave this in the back seat. Okay, it's my fault, you didn't get your shit, great.
Speaker 1:So he comes up and he sees her and like oh hey, how are you? I am her mom and that cutie's little grandpa, how are you? And I'm like here we go. I just knew it, I knew it. And how much longer are you going to be? And it was just you got to be Faith.
Speaker 1:And I looked at each other, like here we go again. Are you kidding? And she's like, well, she's my last one for the day, she's my last patient for the day, we can end early. And I was like, wow, this is. This is fantastic, Really. And so we start to walk out and he comes up to me. He's like let me make a phone call real quick. So he mentions Faith's name while he's on the phone and she's like what? And he comes back over, hands me a $20 bill and says I just told your mom I'm taking you out for dinner since you're sore from therapy. And he walks over, walks over to her, opens his door, lets her in and then they go off. And I'm like kidding me. And I was like this is how it starts.
Speaker 1:And so it just down, spiraled from there and he would talk to her and she would talk to him about what was going on with my and what was going on with my hand, and I was like I never signed a for you to disclose anything at all and you didn didn't care. And they would go away on like little trips together. You know he would say I'm done, you know, whatever we have so much proof that's coming in this book, because the one thing about the black sheep is. We have to constantly prove our honesty. We have to constantly prove that we are not lying, because we are constantly having to prove that we're not the one.
Speaker 1:He would tell his wife, my mother, that you know well, here's the one that just blew my mind to all in and after my whole life. Of this you would think nothing could surprise him. He brings over a box and he says to his wife, my, my mother, hey, I need to put this together. And I come in and I look and it is a ride-along toy for this woman's kid. Oh, and I'm sitting there going. Nice of him.
Speaker 2:You're having your wife put together your girlfriend's car toy but you know what here's me sounding like I'm going to defend it. But here's the thing, and it's something that a lot of people have a hard time understanding, but something I have to explain a lot, because, whether it's a romantic relationship, a parent, whatever, there are people who choose to remain in those relationships, knowing damn well what is going on, for whatever reasons often it is material, you know reasons or money, because my mother is one of those people as well. She is still married to her husband, who is not my father, but the man who raised me. She witnessed and you know there, there, you know, if you want to read my prequel that comes out in October, you'll recognize this if anyone can relate. But she was standing five feet away sometimes when something was happening and I'd be screaming. I'm a little girl screaming for my mother to protect me, but she didn't want to. She hadn't even wanted to be pregnant with me. She hadn't wanted me at all. She I don't think she wanted any kids actually because, a little tidbit, she actually had her tubes tied immediately after I was born, on her 17th birthday, and, yes, they did that in the seventies.
Speaker 2:So you know, some people are fine with the situation. Your, your mother obviously was fine with it, because women aren't stupid. I don't care what kind of. You could have a good relationship, bad relationship you know when your husband's getting it somewhere else, you know what's going on. That woman's intuition, yes, it's usually pretty dead on Right and you know. And so she knew, my mother knew what she was involved in, but they don't stop it because they choose not to see it. Because I could, I it's funny that my publisher was, you know, commented over and over and we had to change some things in my book because she's like why is your mother always washing dishes? I said because that's all she ever freaking did, all she ever freaking did. Something would be happening, something would be said. I could be getting my head banged against the wall I'm getting so flustered because I'm angry but something could be happening two feet away and she would just be looking the other way, like you were explaining. Your dad did Washing that plate because it was so important More important than me, apparently, and it's disgusting but it's interesting. But you know, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:What you, what you brought up, is that we do exactly, we all do it to anybody who's had some kind of childhood trauma, that you were the black sheep, the scapegoat. We all, as we grow up, even as children, we overshare, we over-explain, we're over eager to be heard and to be seen and to be significant in any way. But the oversharing and the over-explaining, it really inhibits a lot of connection, which is really the one thing that we're all desperately seeking. We're looking for our place, we're looking for where we belong, we're looking for that love, that unconditional love, that security, those safe people, but we're pushing them away and we don't realize that we're fighting so hard for our truth because we're so used to living in the lie that we're pushing people away. Because I mean, it's like it's a big joke in my life. I mean Jesus, 48 years old. If you ask me oh, how are you? Mean, it's like it's a big joke in my life, I mean Jesus, 48 years old. If you ask me, oh, how are you doing? It's like I'm going to tell you and I just prepare people. Are you sure you want to know Like I preface it now? Because it's like a doll with a string and I I just go and I will tell you.
Speaker 2:And it stuns people because I'm so the other thing, and I think you have this too, and a lot of us do. We can say some of the most horrific accounts of what's, what's you know happened to us, whether it's from the past or current, and we say it's a matter of factly. Like you know, I might as well just say like I just got my nails done, but I could be telling about some horrible, painful experience, and people will just look at me with this wide eyed, open mouth gaze Like are you hearing what you're saying? Like this isn't normal, this is her. And then they just like get awkward and weird and walk away and they don't want to talk to you again and they avoid you and and you're just like but, but I want to be your friend, I want you to let's go to lunch, you know, and but, but I want to be your friend, I want you to let's go to lunch, you know, and and we don't realize we're pushing people away with our need to be heard, but it's something that we just have to remember is a result of our past, and I want to say this and be very clear before we go on, because I think it's something that everybody needs to hear.
Speaker 2:I don't care where you are, if you never even started healing or if you're very far along, you're okay, you're fine. I will never call anyone broken or damaged. We are affected, but isn't everybody. You know, my windshield gets wet when it rains. It's affected, but it's not broken, it's okay. You're okay. You're just reacting and having having a normal human experience and unfortunately, all of this stuff is normal because it happens.
Speaker 2:I mean, emotional abuse is the most prevalent in, you know, for children these days, which is disgusting because it leads to suicide and it leads to, you know, all these diminishing feelings and low self-esteem and insecurity. That because codependence and all this other stuff but I never want anyone to stigmatize I am going to raise my hand and say I am damn fully aware that I am a codependent and I'm okay with it. Do I want to be better? Yes, I am self-aware, I try to make improvements. Do I know that I have anxious attachment? Oh Lord, yes, I do. My poor husband, but you know what it works for him, because he likes having a wife who loves him and is devoted and attached to him that much. It might seem clingy to some person, but to him it's just right and he loves it and he knows I adore him.
Speaker 2:So just remember, don't. Don't let anybody whoever needs to hear this, hear me loud and clear. You are just fine. You might be hurt. You might have things you need to work on if you feel you need to work on them, but for the right people you're perfectly fine. You don't need other people to validate your work. Please, please, please, hear that.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And you know, my therapist, who I've been on a couch for since elementary school, was literally like you come to me and you tell me a story of what happened to you and you just sound like you're reading a cue card, like you're just like okay, this is what happened. And she's like and you are so meticulous in the details. And then she's like and then I've been with the same therapist for like 15 years. And she's like and then you'll tell me the same story like eight years later, and it is to the word of what you said eight years ago. And I'm like, because you don't have to think about it. If it's the truth, right. If it's a lie, you're trying to like. What did I say then? What did I say there was? And then I sat down with her one day and I came in with this big tote box and she goes what are you doing? And I was like I'm proving to you, I'm telling you the truth. And she goes are you serious?
Speaker 1:And I was like yeah, I was like look, here's this proof and this and this and this and this and this. And I'm showing her. I'm like here's emails, here's pictures, here's text messages. What do you want for dinner? I kind of want pizza. Okay, you know, yay, you know, and it's the exact same thing. It's the exact same thing it is, and you just feel validated. You're just trying to prove yourself. Yeah, right, and I heard so many times why are you going to this therapist? You know it's like the people who need to go, don't think they need to go.
Speaker 2:They don't think there's anything with them, you know at all. And it's my dad was all about power and money, the perception of power and money oh my, my stepdad too. Right. And perception, that's the key perception. They like to seem and I can think of a lot of not all narcissists are that way, but a lot of them like to seem that way they will go bankrupt as long as they're still driving the Mercedes and have the big house and the Rolex and whatever.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and they used to use Faith and I as an excuse to literally get so much stuff. I mean, it was dumbfounding to me when I would hear some of the stuff you know and I don't. I don't. We're going to go over all the different roles and other episodes, but, like my biological mother took and faith is a little delayed, as a lot of y'all know so she had a procedure and surgery and and she took her blanket from her and she was devastated and she was like that's my security blanket, that's my safety blanket. And she was like you're 11 years old, you don't need this. You know you're acting ridiculous. And so she ran crying and I said to her I looked over at my mom, who will not take the phone out of her hand in case her golden child calls or texts or whatever. She's got to be right there and I looked at her and I recorded this and I recorded it and I said to her I said your son is like 34, 35 years old and has 200 Batman tattoos all over, he has Batman watches and he's obsessed with your poodle, your little poodle pup, that he comes over like it's visitation and gets every other whatever.
Speaker 1:He comes over like a drive-thru and she waits outside like a boyfriend girlfriend waiting outside for him to show up.
Speaker 1:She's standing out there waiting on him. It's like a drive-thru and she waits outside like a boyfriend girlfriend waiting outside for him to show up. She's standing out there waiting on him. It's like a drive-thru. He drives an hour over there and she holds the pup, the dog, and then gives the dog to him through the window and she fills up his car with groceries and she does all of excuse me, all of this and I'm like how dare you, do you say anything to him about releasing the bat? And she's like I don't want to hear it. I said you need to go up there because she's crying and she's like I don't have to do anything. I'm sitting here watching my show and I was like so you're going to let her cry? And she goes, yeah, and I was just dumbfounded I mean we could talk about narcissistic grandparents later Like it's just, it's their world, that's their vision, it's their world and they're letting you in it and so you owe them for it.
Speaker 2:That's oh yeah. Well, it's all about servitude. Everybody serves them in some way. If you don't serve a purpose to them, they have no use for you. And again, this goes to why we, the black sheep, are ostracized, because if we see them for who they are and we're not willing to give in to their baloney and play our role in their facade, which is essentially what they require of people, then we're of no use.
Speaker 2:A strong narrative in my childhood that you'll read in the prequel is that I was supposed to be grateful. I wasn't grateful enough for having food, shelter and clothing, basically because that was all they were obligated to do for me. And they felt they were doing that, even though multiple times in my life I didn't even have a bed to sleep in, I was given the floor or I'd climb up on the couch and have cockroaches crawling all over me. But you know, I was. I had shelter. I needed to be grateful. I wasn't kissing their ass, you know. But the thing about it is that we have to come to terms. You know, it took me, I think, until I was probably I hate to say it was recently 46, 47 to kind of I don't want to say I got past the pain, but I came to a level, a wound. I mean I I've said it before but serial killers who have done you know, they've dismembered multiple bodies and raped and kill people, still have their mom or their dad, or both of them, sitting behind them in court saying, yeah, my, my kid did a really crappy thing, but we're here in support of them. We love them. And here was me, and I'm sure you were the same way, ms Doctor, that we were the overachievers.
Speaker 2:On a roll, I played multiple instruments and I was first chair in multiple orchestras and you know, whatever I did dance, I did a lot of artsy stuff, but I was always more and more the best. No wonder I'm so competitive. But I say now I could win the Nobel Peace Prize, but it wasn't the Pulitzer, it could not be good enough. They would say, well, you didn't get two of them. It's like I could never win. I graduated college, you know, and it was well, that's like a kindergarten education. Compared to your brother, oh, I'm sorry my brother, the doctorate in physics. Good for him. I didn't want to spend 20 years in school, I wanted to actually live my life. But I'm pretty sure I have a higher IQ, just saying. But you know, whatever you know, even if I got a doctorate, I could have five doctorates they would still find something.
Speaker 2:Because if you are the chosen one, if you are the scapegoat, that black sheep, there will be nothing you can do. So I beg of you, if you are one of us, stop trying to prove it. I know it's hard because, as we just talked about, we over-explain, we're so eager to prove ourselves. But the thing about narcissists, whether they're your parents, a friend, a coworker, a romantic partner, they don't care. I have had them lie and, like you, I have physical proof. I can show you evidence. I can show anybody. I can hold a press conference and say I call BS on that and here's my proof. And you know what it will be they will negate it, they will find fault in it in some way, because it doesn't matter what proof you have, it will be twisted into something else. You will still be wrong.
Speaker 2:Well, you didn't have the right to take pictures of me, victoria, without my permission. Your daughter shouldn't have been allowed to use your phone, victoria. You know it's all that always gets turned around. Always. Those documents were fabricated. Those aren't real. You just have fancy software on your computer, You'll never win. So stop fighting.
Speaker 2:When I stopped fighting is when I finally found peace. And you know what? Now I don't explain myself to anybody anymore. I don't give a flying F when anyone thinks and if you heard some of the stuff that'll be in the sequel that I'm still working on that people have said about me and some of this stuff is like so crazy and out of this world, you know, I mean there was the vile remark from my mother about me being a product of rape, but I mean some of these things I hear about me are wild to the point where I want to almost play into them. Like I've been pregnant, apparently for three years, because that's how I trapped my current husband into marrying me. I'm like, wow, I'm like 105 pounds, I look fantastic for being three years pregnant. And I'm like I'm going to go buy one of those baby bumps and get those little like candy cigarettes and just start walking around town, puff and have a 40 ounce in the other hand, just to see what people say.
Speaker 2:Because it's just, it kills me how many people and they could be your blood relatives. They could be your brother. My brother drank the Kool-Aid too, unfortunately. But it could be your brother, it could be your cousins, it could be friends, people you've known that should be loyal to you and that you think are your inner circle. But, my God, when people hear some stuff, they glom onto it. They don't care about that proof, they don't care about that proof, they don't care about your evidence. They want so badly to believe that thing about you that this is what I've learned, and it's a harsh reality You're never. You shouldn't even fight for your reputation, because people who know you, they know the worst in you. They know you're not always right, but you know what? That true friend, that sibling that loves you more than life, whoever that is, that grandma, they'll back you up, even when you're wrong. They'll be there to support you. They'll pick you up when you fall. But all those people it's amazing how hateful and envious people are, but there are too many people that they hear something about you and they love it. They want to fail. They don't want to see you succeed. They don't want to see you happy.
Speaker 2:I had more people in my life. I had so many people in my life, strangely, when I was in my former marriage, when I was being abused when I sexually, financially, legally you know physical threat, you know all the things that were happening, the domestic violence. I had more people in my life, but when I had strength and I realized self respect and I got out and I stood up for myself and, oh my gosh, I found happiness with a man I'd known a long time and I literally live a beautiful, blessed life right now. Nobody liked that too much. It's amazing how everybody's scattered like cockroaches because they don't want to see me happy. They wanted me to be a victim and I refused to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because misery loves company right and a lot of people are miserable.
Speaker 2:Can I say that I am actually shocked and part of why I'm not a huge fan of social media. Look at all the miserable people out there.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's crazy.
Speaker 2:It's crazy, I mean they go after kids and everything like they just don't want anyone to have success. So it's unfortunate, but a lot of us our first bully was mom or dad or both. And that's the most disgusting thing, because your childhood home is where you should feel safe. That is home base, that is where you start life and when you, when you start off wrong boy does it set you up for a lot of failure beyond that.
Speaker 1:But thank god that everyone has us to show them the way but you know, that's what I think makes us such great friends is because we get it. We understand it and we we empathize because we've been there and get it, so like we don't have to question each other's truths, because we know like and I, you know, the black sheep community is tight when you're in it and they know that you're really in it because you're authentic, you're real Like, you don't care. I was doing a speaking thing and I and somebody came up to me afterwards and they were like this was one of the most powerful things I've ever heard. And I said you know, I'm an amputee, I'm a recent amputee and I laid on that table I didn't want to lose it in front of my husband and my daughter. And I laid on the table I've already had like 16 surgeries on my arm trying to save it and four implanted devices and blah, blah, blah. And on that table, dana, I lost it. I was like how am I ever going to deal with the fact that I will no longer have the hand that held my grandparents' hand, that held my daughter's hand, that held my husband's hand, that this is the soulmate of my life, this is my love of my life and I have. I can't wear my wedding ring anymore. Like how am I ever going? And I was just unconditionally crying and I told the staff. I was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I know you have other patients, I just I'm so sorry. And they're like no, no, cause you have the same team, you know, and all your surgeons. And they're like nope, you take your time. My anesthesiologist was crying with me, my surgeon, who's a man. He came in and he was crying with me and I was like I don't even know how to say goodbye to it and he's like you will mourn the loss of that limb.
Speaker 1:So when I was telling the story, I was like you know, after I got it taken off, I went home the same night and I literally it took me to probably a couple months ago when I looked down at it and I said you know what? I told this to Faith first, and then I've been using it when I talk. And I said you know, here's the thing. Yes, it held your hand as a baby, it held my grandparents hand, it held my husband's hand and you know what? We get remarried every year and I'm wearing my wedding ring, on the other hand. But let me tell you something.
Speaker 1:It also had to deal with the hand that was dealt to me by my biological parents and it's gone. It's not coming back, it's gone. And you know what? I can live life with the closure of the nub and realize it's no longer there, and you can move on and realize that it's just gone, the roots have been taken off and somebody afterwards can't be like. That is such a life changing and I didn't think anything up. That would be that, you know, profound.
Speaker 1:But it's the fact that it's like hearing you say that and watching you stand up here and like your metal everywhere and your scars everywhere and you're, you're testifying to the fact that, like I lost my hand and part of it I hold my biological father accountable for because I sought counsel for it.
Speaker 1:Because you know, a doctor screwed up when I was supposed to just have carpal tunnel surgery and like botched my ulnar nerve and my therapist, who was one of his women, was going to be named a defendant and my bio father, hand to God, was like you cannot put her in this because our relationship will come out in court.
Speaker 1:You cannot sue this doctor because she's a named defendant and I said so. I'm supposed to release liability so that people don't find out that this young thing is doing you, basically, and he was just like you need to fall on the sword for me and he goes. You need to drop it, you need to let it go, because if it comes out in court it's going to be ugly and I was like I've lost my arm. I lost my hand, like at that point I wasn't an amputee, at that point I had, um, the claw hand and I hadn't gone to amputation yet, but I had, you know, the claw hand and he knew that they were going to name her in the suit and he was adamant you have got to drop this, you cannot bring her in on this.
Speaker 1:And I was dumbfounded. I'm your daughter.
Speaker 2:Isn this? You cannot bring her in on this and I was dumbfounded. This I'm your daughter, isn't that funny? Exactly, you're his daughter, but he's more concerned about some chick. He was sticking it to.
Speaker 1:Forgive the vulgar reference, but I mean that right because he was worried about once I've actually had a loss for words because he was worried about the perception of it being put out there that this woman was indeed in a sexual relationship with my biological father and he didn't want it to come out in public record. And so he basically told me I had to fall on the sword. And he was like why would you do that to me? You just don't want me to be happy. Why would you do it? I mean, it turned all of a sudden into just like that. It's all about him. I mean, it's not a big deal.
Speaker 1:Dana's arm is just a hand and that point. I had claw hand and I was. They had done a nerve conductive study and I was paralyzed with nerve and muscle damage. The ulnar nerve was shattered and just like literally shredded, and so I literally walked around with no feeling and my hands were clawed in where it was very unattractive and that's the last time he saw my hand and he was like you can't do this to me, how could you do this? How could you even consider doing this to me? And he was like I will make your mother believe that you made me date her. And I said I did not. How do I make you put anything of yours into anything of hers? How is that? How do I do that? I?
Speaker 2:know it didn't even benefit you, because your hand was screwed up, right.
Speaker 1:And I stopped seeing her as a therapist because now my therapy wasn't about my hand, it was all about him.
Speaker 1:Has he said anything about me lately? It was like two high school kids getting it on, you know. Has he said anything about me lately? Do you really think he likes me? I was done. I was done. I couldn't do it anymore. So I asked for her boss to become my new hand therapist and I got her fired because I was like you know, I I just when I found out she was talking to him behind my back and telling him stuff about me, she would tell him can you have Victoria over at the surgeons by 10 AM for an appointment? Appointment and I wasn't even notified. She went through him and I have all of the proof and it was like are you serious? I mean, that is just a tidbit and all of the proof is in the book. I mean narc, narc, who's there?
Speaker 2:um, I'm so excited for this book, by the way, I, I and I still I have to tell people, this cover that I have seen is just, oh, it's ridiculously phenomenal, though there are a lot of books out there, even good books, that probably will never be read because they're just. I mean, I hate to say it's kind of like a face. If you're given 20 people to choose a date with, you know who are you going to give time to? I mean, come on, we don't want to be superficial, but you want somebody that you're kind of attracted to. This book is something else the cover of it. I don't care who you are, you will look at it and be like I got it. You'll at least pick it up and read the back and be like what is that about? Because there's a lot going on. It's phenomenal. I'm very, very excited. So we're going to get all of this information.
Speaker 2:Obviously, in the book the truth will come out, and I want to be clear too. I'm just that person that speaks for everybody because I feel like I should sometimes. Well, so many people are silenced, people like us. So many people give into that silence because they're so afraid, and there are people that should be afraid of the consequences of exposing, but you should never be sorry for being truthful and don't ever be sorry that you've been. I mean, if you're like me, I've been exiled, banished, removed. They don't have, and it's a terrible thing to feel alone and like you're orphaned in the world. And it's a terrible thing to feel alone and like you're orphaned in the world. But, believe me, there are people in life that have no obligation to even give you a second of thought, that will love you more than anybody that you might be biologically related to that treats you like this. People show you how they feel about you through their actions.
Speaker 2:I can't tell you words. When you said that. Actually that's on the back cover of my prequel. You know, sticks and stones may break my bones, but those words, they stay with you forever. As a matter of fact, I'm writing, I'm still writing my sequel, my third book, and actually just before we were recording this, there was a tidbit, something that you know, even just a couple of years ago I was writing about. That triggered me back to something and the way I put it was like my mind was storing all of these terrible, traumatic memories, all those words on like tapes in a vault in my mind and the second it was triggered. That memory vault opened right back up and just put it on a continuous replay and all I could hear were those scathing words over and over and over and they wouldn't stop. And then PTSD turned up the volume and they just kept coming at me and it's an awful, awful thing.
Speaker 2:But you can be okay and you know, like you, you do therapy. I have not been one. Honestly, I've been very open that I've never been one for talk therapy, because throughout my life I've been called crazy and and I've never had a therapist who really believed me or understood me and and I. But I have recently connected with somebody that I just randomly met and found out that, like us gosh the similarities, the parallels and to see her, I mean just she's such a peaceful, calm, bright spirit and I'm like I want that, like I want to be okay with it. I want to be able to not react to those triggers and not cry because it's, you know, my birthday, sharing my birthday with my mother. That's a rough one and it's two days after Christmas, so the whole damn holidays were. It's been rough, so it's funny and I'm going to share this.
Speaker 2:One last thing about this healing. So she's very good, obviously because she knows what she's dealing with. She's doing everything that she needed to do herself to heal, you know. So there's different things. I've read, which have been phenomenal, this and that, but the first thing she had me do, oh, I've read which have been phenomenal this and that, but the first thing she had me do, oh, I got off the call with her and I told my husband you know what this woman wants me to do? She wants me to pull out a picture of my mother and place it on display like, almost like an altar, like, is she freaking nuts? I don't even have one. Well, that was the thing.
Speaker 2:So next morning he's like oh, I knew this was. You know, he's rubbing his head, he's all worried. He's like oh, here we go. The next morning I'm like no, you know what? You know, because I get tenacious about things, I'm like I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna show her and I'm gonna.
Speaker 2:I had to search, I had to pull out, like storage bins in the basement, but I was flipping through some old albums and I found a picture and it was my mother and I was sitting next to her. I was probably, I'd have to guess, about eight years old, maybe nine, but about that age and I don't know what it was, I think because it was so prevalent what our relationship had always been and what it will always be she had this. There's this look about her face I can never quite accurately describe stone-faced, but her lips are always curled a little bit. But you can't tell if it's like a snarky smirk or trying to fake a pleasant, you know expression smirk, but it's very subtle, it's very slight, but her eyes are just. You could see the coldness and the detachment and like we were sitting next to each other, but she was kind of turned with her shoulder and her back, like turned away from me, like you could see the dissociation and you could see the innocence in my face, just kind of like sitting there, like I was very doe-eyed and just innocent, looking Like I had no idea, like I just wanted to be by my mom.
Speaker 2:But I said you know what, damn it. I'm going to put that picture out. And I put it. It's actually right over here. I am facing it every day. I put it out, I put some flowers around it and, and the second I put it out. I looked at it and the tears, just that, all that pain, and I said the F-bomb.
Speaker 2:I told her F-U, I don't even know how many times, and I mean I was loud, I, I had to get it out and I did that probably six or seven times that day, a few times the next day, but now it's just there and my husband laughs because you know, he says, with the flowers and everything he goes, that's overkill, it looks like a funeral. But I said you know what, I didn't even intend it that way, but it actually does look like a funeral. It looks like a funeral. But I said you know what, I didn't even intend it that way, but it actually does look like a funeral. It looks like like I have it set up on top of something. So it looks like when somebody dies, a coffin and you lay that pretty flower thing on top in their picture. I didn't even realize, unconsciously, that I did this, but I'm like it is a funeral because I'm bearing the relationship because that's what it is with people like us.
Speaker 2:Is that relationship that we're trying to get over? Yes, it hurts, it's like somebody has died, because we had all this hope and we thought maybe that might change. Maybe one day they'd love us, maybe we could convince them of our worth. And when the relationship is over, you just have to come to that acceptance. It's over, it's a death. It's over. It's a death, it's done. But you know, it's nice actually seeing that picture. I think it's good for me now to remind me that it was never about me, it was about her. And that's what we have to remember as adults. You know, to help us get further.
Speaker 2:Whether you do go to talk therapy or you do, you know some of this crazy kind of healing, like I'm doing, where you have to dig up old pictures and curse at them. But you know what? Get over it the best way that you can. It will always be there, but you just have to learn to accept it so you can accept yourself. Because that was why she said she made me do that. Because she said, with you rejecting your mother like she rejected you, you're one in the same and you don't want to be like your mother. And I said, oh hell, no, I never wanted to be like her. So I am accepting her. She is there. I accept that I'm a part of her, but I accept that we are no longer and that our relationship is done and I'm moving on the end.
Speaker 1:I love you. You need to go pick up this book Asking for Air. It is oh my, oh my God, like I read it. I can't tell. I bet you I've read it three times and you're so funny. It is Like when I've been in the hospital and Fates is asleep, I'd pick it back up and read it. And you know it's not just because it's you, but it's also because you resonate with the fact that, like, oh my God, she gets it. And and you know it's because I've been there, I get it.
Speaker 1:You see yourself in your stories. You see yourself, you know, and you are a phenomenal writer. So when you're sitting there and you're reading it over and over again, you're just like, oh, what a turd this guy is. And you're, you're looking at it and I mean I used to, and this is probably way too much information, but I would take it with me when I would like go into the bathroom and I would come back out and I'm like I have a book with me and it was just because that was my only time.
Speaker 1:The bathroom was in Faith's room, right, but there's parts of Gasping for Air. I'm clearing this up before everybody thinks I'm taking it to your bathroom. But there are parts in this book Gasping for Air where you are just angry at someone I'm not going to say who there's a few but and I took it in there and I'm like you little bastard, like, how do you treat my friend this way? Like, and I'm in the bathroom and I can't say this in front of Faith, even though she's asleep, but I'm just like, ooh, you are such a snake in the grass Like somebody needs to go mow the lawn.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Exactly. And and you know, and here's the thing that I love about us is that this is speaks to where we started, which is with narcissists. We all have similar experiences, but slightly different, because my book gasping for air it basically dives into the 25 year relationship I had with my ex-husband, dives into the 25 year relationship I had with my ex-husband. Yet the kicker was there was always physical threat, but he abused me in every other way but didn't hit me, whereas your book who Kicked First? It's hard because you really got the physical aspect. So, you know, even though we got, we had similar experiences.
Speaker 2:We experienced those things in different ways, and so it's not to judge or to compare, because anybody even if I'm getting chills just because there's so many people that go through stuff and these narcissists will just do anything, and it just goes to speak to what lengths they will go. But whatever it is, it's just them trying to overtake you to fulfill their ego, and and I thank God every day that my ex didn't do the things your ex did to you and I'm sorry, I mean it kills me that a human being could treat another one that way. But anybody who relates to this, you know, definitely pick up your book who Kicked First. And mine is more of an emotional, psychological warfare with sprinkles of sexual abuse and financial abuse and all these other really fairly unknown and unacknowledged abuses, but they're all abuses nonetheless.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you don't need to be hit, to be abused, but what you went through is, I mean to say, horrific is an understatement. So kudos to both of us for even being alive and standing here to tell people what it is and what it's about, and that we can serve as examples that you are not so broken that you cannot find love again. It doesn't mean it's easy, because there is a lot of baggage when you're women, like us, but or men. But there are people out there that will love you. They may not be your mother or your father or your brother or whoever, but there are people that love you and I love you. By the way, honey, I you know that you're you and your daughter in my heart. Your husband's not so bad either, but, but thank you again for having me on.
Speaker 2:We will continue discussions about various aspects of narcissism, as we often do, and we will bring people as much information, and I would encourage anybody who thinks that they know somebody who might have any resonance with this. Share this episode, share this information. Go get the books yourself. Even if you just want a good toxic relationship, read. I think either one of ours fits the bill. Got an airplane ride you got to stay awake on. You'll stay awake, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I can't thank you enough.
Speaker 2:I really really mean it.
Speaker 1:I will talk with you soon. Sounds good, thanks.
