A Contagious Smile Podcast
A Contagious Smile is a powerful platform dedicated to uplifting and empowering special needs families and survivors of domestic violence. Through heartfelt stories, we shine a light on the journeys of extraordinary individuals who have overcome unimaginable challenges. Their triumphs serve as a testament to resilience and strength, inspiring others to rediscover their own inner light. Each episode features candid interviews with survivors, advocates, and experts who provide valuable resources and insights to support those on their own paths to healing and empowerment. Join us as we celebrate the power of resilience, the beauty of shared stories, and the unstoppable spirit of those who turn adversity into hope. Let us guide you in rekindling your spirit, because every smile tells a story of courage and transformation.
A Contagious Smile Podcast
Resilience and Reclamation: Navigating Narcissistic Family Trauma, Embracing Healing, and Inspiring New Legacies TRIGGER WARNING
What if the very people meant to nurture and guide you in childhood became the source of your deepest wounds? Join us as we unravel the complexities of growing up with narcissistic parents, especially fathers and father figures, who often leave an indelible mark on one's emotional landscape. Through raw and heartfelt stories, we shine a light on the journey of healing from a troubled upbringing and emphasize the importance of acknowledging past traumas to find solace and peace. We invite you to listen to these candid conversations as a reminder that you're not alone in this struggle and that healing is possible.
Our special guest Dana, the inspiring author of "Gasping for Air" and "Who Kicked First," joins us to share her incredible journey of resilience. Through her narrative, we explore themes of family betrayal, deception, and the courage it takes to break free from the cycle of narcissism. Dana's storytelling acts as a beacon of hope, encouraging those entangled in toxic family dynamics to reclaim their narratives and forge a new path. Hear her powerful insights and celebrate her warrior spirit, which inspires us all to rise above the pain and choose a different legacy.
Throughout this episode, we unravel the long-lasting effects of emotional neglect, abusive family dynamics, and the silent treatment that can pervade familial relationships. Personal stories highlight the struggles of facing manipulation, exclusion, and the battle to maintain self-worth amid toxic interactions. We delve into the emotional turmoil of experiencing betrayal over significant family events and the strength it requires to navigate life with integrity despite false narratives and unjust blame. This episode is a compelling exploration of the human spirit's capacity to endure and transform, offering listeners a chance to reflect on their own journeys and the power to break free from the chains of their past.
Good evening and welcome to another episode of Narc. Narc, who's there? Help me, I'm gasping for air. I love that title, I love it, love it. I love Dana. She's back. We are doing this series. Welcome. I am so excited because we are discussing I don't even want to call him father, like I don't even think that's a justifiable. Anybody can lay down and get somebody pregnant. But father, I just I don't think that's a term that should be used here. So what do you think we should call him? And welcome, by the way.
Speaker 2:Hey, what should we call him? I think that's a personal decision. I mean, unfortunately, you know, for societal purposes and relational conversation, we call them dad, father, whatever, I mean yeah, and that's the thing I mean.
Speaker 2:I've even been with people. We all have that mother wound as well and you know, mother's the egg donor, this is the sperm donor, but you call them what you will. There's a lot of other names we can call them that apply, but at the end of the day, I think that what I want people to get out of this is we are obviously here to connect and relate and let you know that you're not alone. But as much as it sucks whether it's mother, father, whoever siblings they're usually we talked about that already before but there's a lot of people lost as collateral damage in this narcissistic warfare, which is basically what it feels like. Is warfare obligation to continue those relationships? If they are hurting you mentally, physically, especially, in any way, shape or form, toxic, they're not serving you any purpose. To continue People are not going to change. They have shown you how they feel about you and today we're going to get into how, at least for our experiences, how fathers, for lack of better words, have not contributed to our well-being in the most positive way.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. By the way, I have to tell you. I have to give you a little shout out. I was looking while I was recovering from the most recent surgery and I was watching all of these amazing little tidbits showing that your book is coming. I can't wait. I was so excited. I thought I was so special when I knew titles before, but then she dropped them on the last one and it was like dad gum it because I was just feeling a little special there. So I'm just a little hurt no, no, no.
Speaker 2:You are very special because I keep those little tidbits for those special times and special people. There are people that I sprinkle information among that don't even know that they have inside info. But yes, the book about my childhood is coming out in October called Choking on Shame the scapegoat child in a narcissistic family. And it was rough. I mean honestly, full disclosure. I'm not even excited about it because it was so. It was gut-wrenching to write it.
Speaker 2:And it's not just that I'm not over stuff or that I mean like I was having psychosomatic symptoms where I couldn't write for days. There were memories, even after it already went to the publisher. There were memories resurfacing in the middle of the night and I never thought I was one of those people who hid all that trauma and like, forgot about things that happened 30, 40 years ago. But that one, that book I never like to use the term broken or damaged because that's just not nice, but that book did kind of break me a little. It definitely showed me where I wasn't healed and took me right back into therapy. But thank God I appreciate those moments in time where I can step back and say, okay, I need a minute that this one alerted me. It was like those red alarms going off that like you still have work to do, girlfriend, and that inner child stuff sucks ass. I'm just going to say it does.
Speaker 2:It absolutely does. Yeah, but a lot of it was my mother, but a lot of it had to do, as I was saying before is the father figure. In my case it was the stepfather, who was in my life since I was very, very young. But, man, it doesn't matter. Whoever is that father figure, you know they're both responsible for your well-being and I don't know about anyone else. But when you have both of them coming against you as I know you had as well I mean to try to grow up in that you're basically raising yourself.
Speaker 2:And amen, sister, I mean no child, I I'm talking like my stuff started at three years old. I was on my own and I am finding at 48 that there are a lot of things I am completely inept in, um, in relationships, because I had to make my own way and what the hell does a three-year-old or a 13-year-old, or a 23-year-old for that matter, know? And I've made my way so far and I'm good and I pat myself on the back. But we can all always be better and part of that is understanding what we've been through and accepting it, and that's why you and I are here sharing the experiences, so that hopefully it opens somebody else's eyes to understand what their situation is and so that they, hopefully can move forward and get to a certain piece with it went back and looked at it and I was like, how much of this do I really want to put in there, how much you know?
Speaker 1:and the thing is is that I put proof of everything, like everything. There's actual text messages. There's photographs of my sperm donor with other women. There's text messages to him from other women. There is so much evidence in every category. We've covered so far and we'll cover. And you go back and you think, oh, I need to add that one in there. Or you know when is enough enough, when are you pushing it a little too much? And then you go back and think, how was I so naive, how was I so different? And I wanted to share with you and all of the listeners. I have been in therapy since, like basically elementary school. But the wonderful woman that has helped me all of these years said to me when I spoke with her not long ago and I told her I was like the black sheep really is like everything's put on us and we're blamed for everything, but in reality they try to shut us up and ruin our self-worth, ruin our self-esteem, because we carry the knowledge we're the truth seers.
Speaker 2:We see things for what they really are and we call it out, and they can't risk that. They cannot risk being exposed, because that's the problem with a narcissistic parent, a narcissist of any type. It's all about them. That's the typical idea about them, in a simplistic way, but with the parents. This is why people don't understand us and why there's so much push against people like us when we do speak out. That's your mother, that's your father, yeah, well, guess what? I was their child and they put themselves above me. What, how they appeared was more important than my wellbeing, and they shut you up and they silence you. They will physically use force to intimidate you, and that's not okay in any case, but specifically just because they want to save face. It's atrocious.
Speaker 1:They ruin who you are to everybody. Yes, everybody.
Speaker 2:And from the time you're a child and I think that's the thing that people don't understand oh, they wouldn't do that, they're wonderful. Yeah, well, you're not their daughter I always say and that's the thing I was being ruined from the time and discredited, called a liar, called crazy, deemed mentally unstable from the time I was a young child, and so when I sit here it hurts my heart to even sit here listening to you saying and I have this evidence and I'm putting because that's a typical thing that we do is we are so used to being that it's just assumed that nobody will believe us. That we, we are like collecting every fact that we can, and like we want to hold a public forum to say, look, I'm telling the truth, I swear, because we, we just want somebody to believe us. And how sad it is that we still, as adults, have that doubt and that we have and I know, know, you carry this too You're putting this book out and we're both like you.
Speaker 2:A part of you almost feels bad because people shame you about it, but it's like. But this is my truth and it's wrong. And it's not even about them. It's more about me and my healing, and you know my experience helping other people, but but other people don't see it that way. But the problem is, other people don't want to see the truth either, just like all the people that enable an excuse and call you a liar and say, yeah, you know what that, Dana, she's crazy. Okay, well, if I'm crazy, then don't worry about what I'm writing. That's my response to that, so congratulations.
Speaker 2:By the way, I'm very excited I cause you know I love your cover. The cover of this book is ridiculous, people. Just so you know, if you haven't seen it, you will see it soon. I imagine we will have some big reveal somewhere on social media and know when the book is available. But it's definitely about your experience being raised by narcissistic parents and it just your cover. Just really. I felt it because I was that girl knocking on that door and getting that person that looked, you know, good to the community, but boy behind that door, that was scary stuff, right.
Speaker 1:But thank you. But what is so ironic is like you can have all the proof in the world and then it's like, well, why do you have pictures? That's why. And then they turn it like yeah, well, you didn't have my permission to take this, so you're being deceitful because you went behind my back and didn't have my permission and you're like you were the one who's wrong. Why did you turn this on me? But the one thing I wanted to put out that I thought was just jaw dropping was she said to me if you and I are lying, then why are they trying to silence us If we're telling a lie about who they are, and it's not their truth?
Speaker 2:why do they try and silence us? Well, because they know that we're not lying. They know that they just have to have everybody else think that we're liars. They discredit their victims because they know they know at some point you're gonna find some strength and get brave enough to open your mouth up to some unsuspecting person, some person that you might still have a tie to, that might still possibly believe you, and they can't risk that. They can't risk anyone believing you anybody.
Speaker 1:Well, let's dive into the whole father, you know father thing. You know it's hard when you're growing up and you feel like you're not even important. It's almost as if you can imagine, if you close your eyes and you imagine a little girl who is sitting there and she has broken family pictures and a calendar with lots of like cancellations all over everything, because you're promised all of these things and they're never delivered. Everyone else is more important than you unless you feed into whatever they need at that moment. That's when it matters. And you know, growing up everybody knew that and to this day, everyone who knows me knows my grandparents were everything to me. Anyone who knows me knows that. And to punish me wasn't. You're going to bed early, lose tv, you lose this, you lose that. I lost the right to see my grandparents. That was my punishment. Or the stuffed animal my grandparents gave me the day I was born was taken from me and I was not allowed to go and see my grandparents, nor was I allowed to call them, and that was my punishment and that, to me, was awful. Take away my tv, make me go to bed early, I don't care, but you don't take away my grandparents and that was my punishment and that, to me, was awful. Take away my TV, make me go to bed early, I don't care, but you don't take away my grandparents. Like that was like not you know even an option, but like he would do something. They had the perfect example. And I didn't put this in the book, but I mean, cause it's so tedious, it's stupid. He would. He'd call me in the room and he'd be like can you go get me some water? And I'd go downstairs and I'd go get water. I'd come back and hand to God. He would say I don't like the glass, I don't like how it feels in the glass, I don't like how it tastes in that glass. I want a different glass. So I'd go get a different type of glass, completely all together. There's not enough ice. I'd have to go back down again. Where'd you get the water out of the sink? No, well, the sink had a water filter. No, so I go back, rinse out the cup. Good, the same amount of ice. I fill it from the refrigerator. Where'd you get the water? The refrigerator? No, I want a bottle of water. You didn't say that. So now I'm going back downstairs again and I'm like I remember this like five and I would go back downstairs, get the same cup, throw everything out, get more ice that came from the refrigerator the same place the water would and get them a bottle of water.
Speaker 1:And it was like a nightly thing and it was like, why am I having to go and do this for you? I mean, it was time and time again and it was never, you know, I would say, could you come in and tuck me in? No, it was. If you want to say goodnight to me, you come to me. You have to always go to him. You know, if I said something and he didn't want me talking, he would like pick me up and put me on top of his armoire in his bedroom and I was little, and he would leave me there for a long time and he would go back and do whatever he would. He would leave the room and left me way up high on this piece of furniture because I said something.
Speaker 1:I mean, you know, this is just, and this is at a really young age and it's primitive years and even as I don't care what age you are, people, even as adults, people are like well, you're an adult. Yes, I might be an adult now, but he's still the parent and he should act, you know, like, in fact, they have nothing to do with faith, that they're still the parent, the grandparent they're. They are, you know, narcissistic grandparents, which is another episode we have to do. Yes, and they, I mean literally. How do you and we're both parents how do you completely ignore an innocent child who has you know, literally been fighting for their life and you got nothing to do with them because they don't suit you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's nothing more degrading and degrading isn't even the right word I mean. These days, one of the things that really bothers me that's become a thing is like ghosting not responding to somebody's communications or what's worse and has been done to me by many, many, many people the I'm standing right in front of you and you pretend like I'm not even there. I was made to feel that way from a very young age as well. So I have words. You know, my stepfather, who was essentially the father figure, the only one that I had, would degrade and demean me every chance he had. You should have never been born. Nobody loves you, your mother didn't even want you, which, unfortunately, is actually the truth. That was probably the only truth he ever spoke. But to actually say that out loud to a young child, I mean, that's just unconscionable to me. And I could go on and on with a million examples. But then, even as an adult and I too thankfully had a great grandma and a grandma that loved me very much and thankfully nurtured me in the way that I wasn't otherwise but even now I'm 48 years old and I'm not allowed to see my grandma because she's now, you know, getting to that age where she's not doing so well physically or mentally, and so she lives with my mother and stepfather and I'm not but this is a typical narcissistic thing I'm not allowed at their house.
Speaker 2:Well, if somebody is not allowed at a house, that gives others, including other family members and siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins the impression like wow, what don't we know? What did Dana do? What did Victoria do? That they're not, they don't even allow her at her, their house. Oh my gosh, it gives an impression without actually spreading the rumor or telling the lie. But you know how hard it is for me to listen on the phone with my grandma, who's starting to have memory issues and such.
Speaker 2:Well, why didn't you come to my 80th birthday party? Because I wasn't invited, grandma. Well, they told me you were invited and they said you had to work, so you just didn't come. And she's crying. I honestly had no idea. My son took friends to this party. I didn't even know it was happening, but I wasn't invited.
Speaker 2:And this is Christmas, this is family reunions, this is multiple things. And and it's really disgusting that they do this and thereby again just perpetuating this idea that there's something wrong with me and that I'm like I mean, if I heard somebody wasn't allowed at a house. I'd think what? Are they a criminal? Are they a thief? Are they, did they do something horrible? Or are they as mentally unstable as they're accused of being? And I'm like over here, I mean I posted a funny thing on Facebook last month. It's like I don't know why so many people hate me Cause I'm just at home having a cheese stick with my cat, like I'm not doing anything, and you could probably hear her. She's at my feet here meowing. But I mean it gets ridiculous that you can literally do nothing and they create this whole illusion and people buy it. They're without questioning it.
Speaker 1:Yeah absolutely they're, without questioning it. Yeah, absolutely they do. You know, when my grandfather passed away, I was young and I was 21 and I was devastated, like my whole world was just turned upside down. And it wasn't long after that that my sperm donor, if you will, called me and said I need you to come to the house. We have to go through the will. I'm the executor. You would have never known, dana, by looking at these people, that they had the money. They did. They were very, very humble, very sweet, very giving, very kind. And I sat down and in front of me was all these legal documents, so hand to God, and I'm I'm like I don't care, I just want the government back. I don't care, like I don't care, whatever this is, I just want it back. And he was like okay. So he starts reading this document and it's all this legal jargon, and I'm young, I don't know what I'm looking at and he goes.
Speaker 1:Well, your grandmother left you a million dollars and when you turn 25 it will come out of the trust and you can have it. And I was like I want my grandmother, like, I didn't even hesitate and I was like that doesn't bring her back and he goes. So you don't want the money. And I said I'd rather have pictures, I'd rather have memories. You know, like, and he was like so you don't want it and he goes. Well, she wanted you to have it. So I'm looking at these documents, okay, whatever, I don't even know, I'm still bawling. It's.
Speaker 1:This was in April, mid-april. She passed in January of 97. So I'm like okay, and I just whatever. And I signed it and I said you know what? I want the pictures. I want the greeting card. She kept every greeting card I ever gave them.
Speaker 1:I was like these are the things that I want, these are the memories that I want, and he goes. Well, you know I haven't gone through all any of that yet. Blah, blah, blah. So you know, whatever, I got up and left. I'm like I can't even be here with the money. What are you gonna do? You have a house, you can do this. And I was like I honestly hadn't thought about it because I put no thought into it.
Speaker 1:I want my grandmother like that's where I am is all about the perception that he is from New York he not myself. He's Jewish and that he has money, even though he celebrates Christmas. I'm not knocking any religion whatsoever, but he celebrates Christmas and doesn't even own a menorah. So that's all I'm going to say on this. Oh boy, right, but he wears the high. He wore the high on the necklace, but he told but he wears the high where he wore the high on the necklace. But he told everybody he was a New York Jew. But he celebrated Christmas and and didn't do? I mean, he didn't even own a yarmulke, he didn't celebrate Hanukkah, nothing, nothing.
Speaker 1:So a couple months later after that, he and I were in some discussion, as always, like he's blaming me for something, whatever. And he goes you are such a effing idiot. And I was like what did I do now? Like I don't live here. What did I get blamed for this time? Do you really believe that you're getting a million dollars? And I went what are you talking about? And he goes that whole thing was a joke. It wasn't even real. And I went wait what I was? I was so angry, dana, that he would use my grandmother's passing as a way to mock at me. That how do you do? First of all, that's his mother. This was like the most wonderful woman ever and he just made.
Speaker 1:He made up the documents like they were realistic documents. I signed it and he signed it and he literally, and he made all this up thinking it's a big old, freaking joke, and he's like oh, there was lots of money, I just kept it all for myself. And he's like I don't have to. And he didn't probate the will, so I could never see it, I could never get a copy of it, and I have no idea. I know that things were left to me. I didn't get it and that, and that's fine. You know it's materialistic things. I want her, I get the memories, but who in the hell does something like that as a joke, a narcissist who's trying to make it look like you are the one after the money.
Speaker 2:Oh, she signed this thing thinking she's getting a million dollars. See, when you've played the narcissistic game a few times, like we have, you can see it in other people's situations. You see it coming and that's. I swear to God I'm sorry, I was laughing when you were talking about he thinks he's a Jew. You'll actually read that in my next book. Choking on Shame is what I talk about.
Speaker 2:My stepfather Same thing Married my mother in the Catholic church that we attended, celebrates Christmas every year, yet proclaimed he was a Jew. Never and I actually say the same thing never saw him wear a yarmulke. Never saw a menorah lit in our house, like the other Jewish kids in the neighborhood, because we grew up in a predominantly Jewish community. Ironically, it's like he wanted so bad to be perceived as being Jewish that he literally bought his home before we moved in with him. He bought his home in a predominantly Jewish community with a Holocaust museum and everything, and ran around and he still tells people he's Jewish. I'm like, I'm 48. We have yet to see any. I mean, there is no star of David. There is nothing in that house, that, and I remember being at their wedding, standing up there in the Catholic church that my mother and I belong to, and I, I, I relay this in my book, like watching this man stand there, you know, crossing himself, and I like, just like and I'm seven years old, or maybe I was just turning seven, I was right around seven, though and I'm like sitting there, like what the hell is this? Does he think? Like people are buying this? But I remember, like, like I say, I relay the story. I'm looking out at my godmother, my grandma, my great, all these the women who believed me and who still are on my side, and they're just smiling and telling me to smile and respect your mother. And and I'm just like, but don't you know, it's like I'm antsy, I can't say anything in the church in the middle of the ceremony, but I'm like, do people not see what is going on? Do not see that? I mean, you want to talk about a mask? This man's full of S, h, I, t to the fricking max, like he's loaded with it and everybody's buying it, like it's an ice cream Sunday. No, not this girl, not this girl. But it never got better.
Speaker 2:Now I'm curious, though, because I know what my deficiency was, which was basically existing, and I don't mean that lightly. My mother did not want me. It's a whole story. You got to read the book. But you know she actually convinced her husband and many people that I was apparently a product of rape. I mean, apparently she's claiming her boyfriend in high school raped her and yeah, the rapist, by the way, texts me every day and has been the most amazing father ever. But and she named me after him, just saying, um, you know. So, yeah, hard, hard to swallow that one. But she's got people convinced, including her husband.
Speaker 2:So from day one, I was deemed as less than which, in its own right, is sick. But then he he was so bent on having I kept hearing about he wants his own child. I didn't have the right DNA. My mother would remind me that all the time that she thought I was going to be a boy and she was going to name me this again after my father, my real father, you know, and it's just like I I complain in the book, like it's like, even as a kid I thought I got it all wrong. I was born. I was born, which was the first mistake. I was born the wrong gender. She did not like who my father was and wanted it to be her husband instead of the person that she coupled with instead and then wanted to blame him. I was always talked to about as a mistake or an accident or my favorite, which I talk about in the book a lot I kept hearing conversations about what he did to her, like she would make a typical narcissist.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Forgive me for being crude. She didn't spread her legs to him. He did this to her and I'm the this. I'm the thing that was done to her, as if it was some horrible thing. So then my stepfather would go on these. I shouldn't have to pay for another man's child. I shouldn't have to look at you in the face every day and see his face, cause, of course, I looked more like my dad when I was younger and thank God, I mean, my mom was pretty, but I didn't want to look like my stepfather. That would be scary, but you know, it was just so many things.
Speaker 2:But again I go to the fact that I tell everybody think of a young little girl, think of a five or six year old little girl, and saying and doing the things that happened to you and that happened to me. If you can sleep at night after doing something like that, we're all human. None of us know what to do with. We deal with what life throws at us, but there is no. Nobody can argue with me that they did the best they could or this other crap or the other big thing I get is oh, but they probably came from. Yeah, you know what? My mother abusive household. I mean she, her father held a gun to her head. He was a drunk and he was a narcissist. Absolutely. There was a lot of stuff there. Stepdad, yeah, he, his, both his parents actually abandoned him and his four siblings like literally abandoned them in Boston and they were separated into foster homes. He was abused.
Speaker 2:That is not an excuse. I don't care what the hell you have been through, because why is it that after everything that I went through and then decided I didn't trust myself enough to have a child because I was afraid I would do to another human being what they did to me? But then I decided no, I'm going to just not be that way. I don't know what the hell I was doing being a parent, but I was not going to do that. And when I had my son. Why is it exactly? But so I don't buy this.
Speaker 2:Well, that was what was done to them as an excuse because I was able to raise my son without I. I I will admit one time, one time, and I cringe even admitting it, but I spanked him so hard, it was just one big whack, and then I went and cried. I just I wanted to die because I did that to him, because I never and here's my tears, this is still my regret, because I never wanted to do to him what they did to me, cause it wasn't just the verbal, it was the physical. It was being strangled and thrown downstairs, it was being literally dragged by my hair, having my head banged against the wall, picking up the phone to call 911 and being beaten with the phone. That is not okay. That is not okay. I'm going to take a minute and breathe. You go ahead. Breathe, you go ahead.
Speaker 1:You are not like that at all. You are not. You're such a beautiful person inside and out and she's just an amazing human being. And and I, you know, every once in a while we do need to be reminded that we are not them. You know the fact that it blows my mind that, you know, these narcissists portray just such a, a stuck up, egotistical ass.
Speaker 1:You know, I, because of my circumstances, with my daughter being medically fragile and coding all the time, and I gave up a six-figure career, and you know I don't think I lost a thing with people I don't regret doing this. No, I know I don't, but I knew what I was getting into. But I shielded her from as much of it as I could. And you know, at one point and I actually put the contract in the book, I contemplated it but I did. And, dana, it's, it's ridiculous, but I know it's almost worth just just for the contract my sperm donor writes this contract and of course I've redacted names because I'm not giving them that satisfaction and in the contract he writes that Faith will not call him an ass. Oh, and Faith will not call him Jew boy, call him Jew boy. And because he was talking to a woman at Costco one day and I was pushing Faith in the cart and we went over there with Christmas stuff and everything there and he was flirting with a woman and Faith who, as we all know and love has no filter and she yelled hey, raise it, why are, why are you over here talking to a woman? And she's like you're like hasa blanca, you have no game. And he was like what? And she goes why are you in the christmas section? You're jewish, jew boy. And so in this contract is that and I I redacted it, so I don't offend anybody at all, but it's in there saying that she won't call him an ass and she won't flip him off.
Speaker 1:And I have so many pictures that I've put in the book where she's like in the crib and he's flipping her off and all of these pictures where he's flipping her and you know all and the picture she's in it and he's giving her the bird and he's out telling everybody she gives me the finger and she does this and she does that and I I put this in there and he made her sign this contract and I'm like what bloody court is gonna hold this to fruition for, like, an eight-year-old to sign a damn contract? Not to call you names, you big puss, like you are an older person and your little feelings wah, freaking wah are gonna get hurt because my daughter who, by the way, is proficient in sign, signs that you're an ass and you know you go around flipping her off and telling her she has to lie and can't tell anybody that you're with other women and she gets mad and tells you you're an ass because she doesn't want to lie. Mom taught her better. And so you go around and just, you know, tell everybody.
Speaker 1:You know she's sick and he's gotten so much money out of telling everybody about her, like he went and got a generator for their 10,000 square foot house and said it was because she's on all this equipment and wrote it off on their taxes so he would always have a generator. Are you freaking, kidding me. You know he's telling everybody oh, I paid for this, I paid for that. I have every receipt, I have the bank statements. I have it where it shows I paid for it. But I guess that doesn't make it real?
Speaker 2:No, no, because everything they do has to be glorified to make them look good. You know, Right, and that's the thing. You know it's interesting. Everything we talk about, I mean any narcissist you deal with, it's about power and control. And if you disrespect them as you deal with, it's about power and control. And if you disrespect them, boy, that's the greatest offense to their ego. So you know, it's funny when I'm listening to you and you're like you know what man expects an eight-year-old to sign a contract? I'm like what person of any age writes a contract for his granddaughter to sign? Like, mean, that sounds like something my stepfather would do, because with them, money, the money, it's all about money. And what people I remember.
Speaker 2:For 13 years I ran a housekeeping business, obviously as an adult, not as a child, but I remember at one point in his luxury you know community that he lives in his next door neighbor said you know, I know your daughter has a housekeeping business. Could you have her coming call me, give me a bid? And he said well, make sure when you go over there you tell them you have a college education. And I'm like what does a college education have to do with the girls, the cleaning crew that I'm going to send to clean a house and scrub toilet, like you don't need a college education. Have to do with the girls. The cleaning crew that I'm going to send to clean a house and scrub toilet, Like you don't need a college education, Well, they need. They need to know that you don't just clean houses, that you have a college degree and it's like, oh, this is about you, because, God forbid, your daughter, by the way, has a six figure cleaning business. By the way, has a six-figure cleaning business, thank you very much. In a podunk area in the midwest where I don't even know how well, because I'm successful, that's how that I made it a six-figure business. But like, isn't that why? And the worst case it, there's so much here. The other part of it there was another person that asked for a recommendation for a cleaning person and he gave my number and she called me and she said yeah, so-and-so, gave me your number and she said he told me you're his cleaning service, Right, and I'm like he didn't tell you I'm his daughter and she goes you're his daughter. No, he just said you're, you're his cleaning service. And I'm like, wow, Wow, mother and stepfather to.
Speaker 2:This was the third time in my life they decided to dissociate from me. They still wanted. They did not want and I am clear, I am saying this very seriously, I have text messages that I can prove they did not want a parent daughter relationship with me anymore, but they still wanted me to send my service to. They wanted me to personally clean their house every week and their business. And I was like that's not how this works, that doesn't work that way. If that's what this is. And I dumb me.
Speaker 2:I did go a couple more times in a professional capacity, Like, okay, if that's how it's going to be, that's how it's going to be. But you know, the last time I had left there because of the way I was treated, that last time I literally my hands were like shaking, I was on the verge of a panic attack and I'm like it's not worth it there. And he's like well, don't you need the money? I said not, that I don't need your money, I don't need your money. And we dissociated.
Speaker 2:And then the next thing, my mother, who does not contact me, sends me a text and said well, you know what's your new? Because I remarried shortly after that and they're like she goes what's your new last name? Because I have to change our will and I knew she wasn't changing her will to add my new name to it and that's fine. All my pictures came off the wall. Um, you know, I could go on and on. My baby blanket was sent to me through my son, which is disgusting in itself, but what it comes back down to and what I've always noticed and we'll get into the mother thing more in the mother episode but my mother mine at least, seemingly was afraid of her husband. He, whatever he wanted, was what, how it was going to go, and he had control over everything.
Speaker 2:And even when she witnessed abuse, even when she witnessed mistreatment of me because it happened right in front of her numerous times she would literally turn away. So she could say she didn't see it. She would literally turn away and, like in in my book, choking on shame. I mean, for me even the publisher was like she's always washing dishes. I'm like that's all she ever, freaking, did. Nothing was important. I could be going through like traumatic life stuff. I could be being beaten three feet away. She would just look out the window with that stone face washing the dam because that plate needed to be cleaned for 10 fricking minutes and you want to talk about not feeling important and not being seen and heard and then getting silent treatment because I made him upset. Wow, it's a lot. It's a lot. And and for people who want to say, you know, there are people cause there was physical abuse, but there's people who have said you know well, if there's not physical abuse, if they did. Well, let me tell you what emotional abuse, verbal abuse, that stuff affects the child more.
Speaker 2:Yes, has longer term effects. Honestly, I had some terrible physical, the physical abuse. I have met people who have endured much worse, but mine wasn't nice at times, but I, it doesn't even affect me, like I it sounds crazy but I don't like, I don't even care that they beat the crap out of me and strangled me and did this and that and whatever, but the words they almost were like on a replay through my mind. So, as much as I knew they were wrong and as much as I left that house, the second I could and was like nobody else is ever going to do this again. Gosh, it's, it's. It's.
Speaker 2:It's somewhere underneath everything, in the core of your being, and that's what makes it so hard to heal from it, because it's so far under the surface, under even our lack of awareness, that you really have to have the right person who gets it, that can get down to that core. It's like I always say, it's like digging up a rose bush. If anyone's a gardener, if you've ever had a rose bush and tried to dig it up, you always think, okay, like how much, I'm down three, four feet in the ground. This mother trucker's got to stop at some point. No, you keep going. You think maybe that's it, maybe that's it. It keeps going and going deeper down and the thorns get thicker and they stab you and you bleed. That's what healing is like. It's awful, it's awful, but you got to do it. You got to do it to get to a sense of peace.
Speaker 1:Yes, let me ask you because I'm curious. One of the things that I learned the hard way was whenever he my sperm donor, whenever he was mad about something, no matter what, I would get the silent treatment like a toddler, you know, crossing their arms and I'm not talking to you. And like they could be in the room with, say, our egg donor, my mother, and he would be like tell Victoria that she needs to. You know, go light off. And I'm like I'm right here, you know, and it's like your father should turn the light off. I heard him. I'm, I'm three feet away, but he's not speaking to me and it would kill me inside. Like it was like what did I do?
Speaker 1:And I remember like he would flirt with my friends and if they were like I'm not going anywhere with him, he's freaks me out, he scares me. He would come to me and say you're wasting my time because I redid my day to be here for your friend who needed something, and now they don't want to be alone with me in their car and whatever, and and I don't have time for this and you ruined my day and I'm going to apologize because my friend didn't feel safe to be in a car alone with him because she knew he was going to be flirty and disrespectful and I would be the one to apologize, and then I would get silent treatment. And it's like what? To me, the silent treatment is horrible because he would just like walk by you and not speak to you. Did you go through that too?
Speaker 2:I didn't even get the courtesy of him telling my mother or acknowledging me at all. I would get a minimum of few days, if I was lucky for any sense of disapproval, up to three months at a time. And this goes all the way into adulthood, because I think people think that when you grow up and you're 18 and you can leave the house, that it ends. And it doesn't end it just it just changes a little bit. Like he would be stupid, he never put his hands on me after I was 18. But yeah, the silent treatment. I always tell people to remember this, because that probably mucked me up more than anything. This, because that probably mucked me up more than anything. Silent treatment is a military hostage war tactic. They used it on war criminals in Guantanamo Bay. This is not what you do to your child, your wife, your whoever. My mother did it to me, my stepfather did it to me. Then I went off and married a covert narcissist, because it was a narcissist that hit me a little differently. So I didn't know and guess who else gave me silent treatment? Him. And what did I do?
Speaker 2:Now, victoria, I am married to the most wonderful, gentlest, loving man, but, god help me, he is a quiet type and I don't do well with it. Really. It has been a challenge for me. I almost did not engage with him because he is so quiet by nature, but I'm glad because we have a beautiful relationship. But quiet doesn't work for me. I always, I as a I always, you always have to have like the TV or a radio or some background noise. Yeah, like I can't even go to sleep, I cannot settle, cause if it's quiet I feel like nervous, like something's going to happen, somebody's you know upset with me, somebody you know it's hard to quiet that after all that time it is.
Speaker 1:Do you remember the moment when you were like, wow, our father is a real piece of shit, like, do you remember that moment and the reason why? Okay, I'm going to tell you mine and you're probably gonna laugh. Yeah, um, and I was older and I like, literally, was in like no contact. So there was no contact and my father was, uh, was an afforded, uh, yeah, see, I came to he was an authoritative figure, supposedly a very authoritative figure, and I had heard that he was sick. So I immediately I was supposed to be doing a meeting, I was international director of my company and I literally said I got to go, I hear my dad is sick, or no contact. But I heard he's really sick. So I leave and I go to I know his doctor, you know he's had the same one forever and I'm in the lobby and he comes out, you know, a few minutes later and you know, just looks at me and he looks fine and I'm like and I said I thought you were sick and he goes what are you doing here? And I said I thought you were really sick and I wanted to make sure you were okay. I said I thought you were really sick and I wanted to make sure you're okay. I said I left my job because you're idiot and I was like. So I just got up, went back to work and said it wasn't as bad as I thought. Blah, blah, beg for forgiveness. And that was what I thought was the end of it.
Speaker 1:Well, apparently he was given a direct order and disregarded it, and so he was given another direct order and he disregarded that. So he ended up being reassigned to another area and that didn't work for him. So he was, if you want, quote unquote called to office and when he went in they basically were going to give him an option. So he went to the doctor unbelievable. And he went to the doctor and told them that he had sinusitis and his doctor is his friend. So his doctor, amazingly enough, writes him out on short-term disability for six weeks and one day until guess what that's when his retirement would have been. So he can't be let go and then he gets his full retirement. So I didn't know that part of the story.
Speaker 1:But then I'm hearing through the grapevine that I had him fired and I was like what? And this was my what the hell moment. What the hell moment? Well, I think, dana, that was the first time I was ever like it's time to bring this to accountability. And I'm going to prove that I'm innocent. I was much. I was younger this was well over 25 plus years ago and I was an instructor in the same department.
Speaker 1:So I had people tell me things and so, in order for you to get off on the floor, he worked on. There were cameras everywhere, there was a sign-in sheet at the desk and there are cameras all over the floor, and then you had to sign in to see who he was. You know his boss was. So I'm hearing that I got him fired. So I go to my dad if you will. And I was like do you really believe I got you fired? And he said yes, and I said, well, then we have a little trip to take, because I want to go and I want to see footage of me getting off the elevator. I want to see the sign-in sheet where I signed the document that I'm on the floor. And then I want to see where, one, I had a meeting and two, where I wrote a letter, because if I wrote a letter, it's going to be in my personnel file and it's also going to be in your personnel file and I want to see the letter that I supposedly wrote and if it's in my writing and I signed it, then they should let me see it Right.
Speaker 1:So he pitched a fit and I'm like no, I'm not letting this go, I'm going to make it until I know that you know Iming me for everything because I didn't do it. So finally, finally, he whispers in my ear. I said why would I do that? Like I can't believe, of all the things you've done to me in my life, that you would accuse me of having you fired. Like, are you really? Yeah, and I said I'm ready to go to your boss and sit down with him and say if I'm being accused of this, then bring it to my face and show me. Like, prove, prove me, prove me wrong.
Speaker 1:And he finally took me to the side and said I found out it wasn't here. And I just looked at him. I said okay, and and that was it. I was like you found out this wasn't me. And and he was like what are you waiting on? An apology? You're going to be waiting forever. And I was like but I didn't do it and he wouldn't acknowledge that. He put it on me because he's the one who kept disobeying direct orders, I know, but that's narcissism 101.
Speaker 2:Nothing is ever their fault. That's why they blame everybody else, Just like everything they know they're guilty of. They project on other people, they steal something, they say you're the thief. It's always. Their ego literally cannot withstand the offense or even entertain the possibility that they are accountable for any of their actions, Even if they do something that they know is wrong. They could beat the crap out of you and it's going to be your fault. It is your fault, yes. Or my favorite is when you get the narcissist that does apologize and says I'm sorry, but oh yeah, I've had experiences, but it's always an I'm sorry, but you did it. So it's like okay, so, but it's not a real apology if you're saying but you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, so you're sorry. You're not really sorry, obviously, but your mate. And it's always in a text message, because that way they can say look see, I said I was sorry, right, but the rest of it, but you did it, it's still my fault, so you're not really sorry, You're still not taking accountability. But again, it's all appearances, Right.
Speaker 1:What was your?
Speaker 2:moment, my moment actually, again in the book. It's one of the earlier chapters. It was the first time I met him, my, my stepfather, um, before. No, I was like three, four years old, um, when I first met him, um, my mother did not tell me where we were going. She led me down the stairs of our crappy little apartment, walked me across this busy street in Chicago and there was this I don't know what was it like? A little Pinto or some God awful little nasty looking car back in the seventies, little hatchback, tiniest thing you could ever see. We get in the car, she sits me on her lap and there's this man. I have no idea who the hell this man is, but okay, so we're in the car, I'm on her lap and he hands me, like he has like this stuffed dog puppet on his hand and he's, you know, making me laugh with it and using funny voices and I'm just looking at him because back then we had stranger danger and we all knew better and all that. But my mom says it's okay, I could have the puppet, okay, so I take it. But then I look at him and I just I threw it back at him. I did not want that stupid puppet because even though he was putting on this, you know little like, oh look at me and we're having fun and I like your little kid act. There was something weird about it. So we proceed to go on. My mother apologizes that I throw this puppet back at him and I wanted no part of it.
Speaker 2:We proceed to drive along. The window was cracked. Back then people smoked in their cars. I have a lung issue and I feel like I had it back then too, but I was coughing and wanted fresh air and we were at a stop sign and you know I'm a kid like the stop lights. You know how you'd sit there and wait for it and count the seconds for it to change from red to you know green or whatever. So the window was down a little bit. Here's me as a little kid folding my little hands over the window and, like you know, I was trying to doubly breathe and also kind of see like stick my little face sideways as much as I could out the window.
Speaker 2:Well, he didn't like that. My fingers were on the glass, get your fingers off the glass. And I wasn't listening, I didn't care, I was in my own little world. Get your fingers. Then he's telling my mother get taller to get her fingers out and get it. Well, I didn't move. So he proceeded to roll the window up and mind you back. Then you know how you had to like like, roll, yeah. Like he reached across and like under our legs and manually, and I started screaming when my fingers started crunching between the glass and the frame. My mother did nothing, he didn't stop. Then he finally did stop because she was like I don't want to say his name, but she called him by his name and said oh, you know, you should probably stop now. She very weak, uh, effort for her to you know, help me out there. Um. So he finally relented. He let it sit for a minute so I could hurt and cry a little bit. Then they got rolled out. The window got rolled down a little bit and I remember my little red fingers and I just clutched them close to me and I cried on my mother and my mother never was like are you okay, or that's wrong or anything, proceeded to I guess.
Speaker 2:I didn't know what it was when I was a kid, but looking back, I was apparently going on a date with them. It was time for me to meet him, I guess. But that is when I was done with him. He proceeded to bring a puppet a different puppet to every date. I was dragged on after that and every damn one of them I threw back at him. I did not want any part of him. I saw behind his crap. He typical luring me with the smiles and the funny voice and look at me, bringing you a gift, and then abusing me literally the first time I met him. The first time I met him and, needless to say, there's a whole book.
Speaker 2:So it just went downhill from there. They got married, I got bigger, I got sassier, I started fighting back, but unfortunately they brought out some big guns too and stuff that I would have never imagined anyone would do to their child, but stuff that really happened. It's horrifying. So it's sad. It's sad that people are okay with themselves and, like I said, I don't understand how they sleep at night. But these kind of people, you know, I've even heard that there's like an idea. There are actually groups of people who think they're like aliens or demons or you know, there's all kinds of ideas. But at the end of the day, these are human beings that do not have remorse or regrets they are. They are literally incapable. So anybody that says, oh, I'm a diagnosed narcissist, I call BS on you, I'm in therapy. For no, you're not. No narcissist would go to therapy unless there was something, some way for them to get a benefit out of it, right, yeah, usually or trying to make you look like the crazy person. I've been there a few times. So, yeah, it's really sad that there are people like that.
Speaker 2:But I want to kind of conclude by saying this is that there's a lot of people that hold shame about how they feel about their, whether it's their father, their mother, whoever this toxic person. I get a lot of people that say, well, my father just died or my mother just died, I don't want to go to the funeral, but the family's, you know, making me feel like I'm a piece of crap If I. I'm giving you permission, if you're listening to this and that resonates, it's okay. It's okay. You know what? Unfortunately, just because you're biologically related to somebody, I'll even go so far. You might have multiple children, and I met a woman once. She was something 90 some years old, but she had nine children that she birthed and she said she only liked a one of them. And I mean that's a horrible thing to say, but you know what that's reality.
Speaker 2:Just because you are biologically related to somebody does not mean that there is an innate necessity to like them. If you don't want to participate in any kind of relationship or contact with a parent, a sibling, a friend, whoever, you don't have to. If somebody dies and you want to go and pay your last respects, go. You want to go and say F you at their grave, that is your option. I am just saying give yourself permission and do not let anyone else corner you into feeling a certain way, shaming you, guilting you. You are entitled to your feelings. You know your truth. Do not let people who do not want to accept the truth make you operate under their perspectives. You're entitled to your opinion and your feelings and I am validating you for you, so go with that.
Speaker 1:There are so many people who do want you around, you know, and the people that don't. That's what just kills me is so many people give excuses to these arrogant pricks. They're like, oh well, they had a horrible childhood. Well, so did I, but I'm not Jeffrey Dahmer. I chose not to follow in their footsteps. You know, I tell people. I thank them because they taught me how I didn't want to end up. You know, if they had kept me around them, I'd have been just like them. So I thank them, I do. And people are like what? Because I broke the cycle, you know, I refuse Faith will come in here and tell you my mom has never screamed at me.
Speaker 1:She's never yelled at me's, never popped me, spanked me, nothing. And that kid when she had a nurse, that was just way off the charts. I told her. I said you have a voice, you need to use it. She goes, but, mom, I want to cuss her out. You taught me better than that. So I'm not going to say anything. And I was like for a moment I was like, oh, I'm so proud of you. But in another moment I was like, dad, come it, just tell her to get out.
Speaker 1:You know it's like she's, but the thing is, you have the choice to break the cycle. You do not do not give them the power to emulate their behavior because they don't have that much power. I refuse to let them have that kind of power anymore. It's like when I've done speaking engagements I come out with like one of those dollar store hearts that you can put stuff in and I said, ok, we have one heart, let's fill it up. So I'll fill it up and say we can fill it up with happiness and laughter and love and gratitude and kindness, or we can fill it with hatred and animosity and narcissism.
Speaker 1:Which one do you want to carry in your life? Life is too short. And which one do you want to carry in your life? Life is too short. And you know you're giving them more power because in their eyes they've turned you into a specimen of themselves, and that's what they want. Misery loves company. Don't give it to them. You know the best revenge is served cold. The best revenge is success, and they do not want to see us succeed. That is the bottom line. They absolutely don't want to see anything.
Speaker 2:I had to be the nothing that they decided I was going to be. Even now I'm going to. I have one published book and two more are coming in the next four or five months. I am so proud of myself for where I came from. To now they can't acknowledge that they I have not had one word about. You know, obviously they don't like them, though I've heard through family but that's the thing.
Speaker 2:I wasn't supposed to be anything, and so they are still out there smearing my name as if they know anything or have any information, even spreading rumors about mental health diagnosis that I don't have, just because it makes that, yeah, like who would dispute that. So I let them like you say I it's. There's no point. You're wasting your breath, you're wasting your time, and my feeling about the people who believe their crap is that those people wanted to believe those things about you. Those weren't your people and, believe me, I have mourned the loss of multiple sides of family because people believe that I've had four narcissists smear my name, and so that's, that's a lot. You want to talk about feeling alone and orphaned and and that that's been something to get through, but guess what? I'm still standing.
Speaker 2:There are still people like you, victoria, who are in my life, that you have no obligation to care about me at all, but we have found each other. But you do, and I love you just as much. But we all have those people. Even when we don't think we do, there are all people that are sitting there wanting to get. They do care about you, they love you and they don't have to and those are your people. Your people are not necessarily your mother, your father, your brothers and sisters and a lot of family. They're just who you decide they are. But you, to go along with what you said, you have the choice. If you want to give people the power to determine who you are and what you can be, that is your choice. I choose not to. You chose not to and thank God, we're the better off for it. Yep.
Speaker 1:Well, I thank you again for being here, and our next episode we're going to talk about our egg donor. How scramble they can be, I love it how they can be. I love it how they can be so poached. We have to end on a laugh, you know.
Speaker 2:Yes, we do.
Speaker 1:So I thank everybody for listening and I hope you will tune in for the next episode Again. I am always so honored to have Dana with us. I love her To madness. Please go get Gasping for Air. It should be on everybody's bookshelf nightstand. It is amazing, seriously. It's one of my top favorite books of all time, and I mean that wholeheartedly.
Speaker 2:Well, I appreciate that, but don't forget about your first book, who Kicked First, because I mean, there are a lot of horrific true stories out there, but, ma'am, I don't know how you're still standing, literally and figuratively, and if people don't know your story, they need to go out and buy your book who Kicked First, because you are literally a warrior of all warriors. So thank you for having me, thank you for having this podcast and for bringing so many of all warriors. So thank you for having me, thank you for having this podcast and for bringing so many of us together, and until next time, yes, thanks everybody.
