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A Contagious Smile Podcast
A Contagious Smile is a powerful platform dedicated to uplifting and empowering special needs families and survivors of domestic violence. Through heartfelt stories, we shine a light on the journeys of extraordinary individuals who have overcome unimaginable challenges. Their triumphs serve as a testament to resilience and strength, inspiring others to rediscover their own inner light. Each episode features candid interviews with survivors, advocates, and experts who provide valuable resources and insights to support those on their own paths to healing and empowerment. Join us as we celebrate the power of resilience, the beauty of shared stories, and the unstoppable spirit of those who turn adversity into hope. Let us guide you in rekindling your spirit, because every smile tells a story of courage and transformation.
A Contagious Smile Podcast
Breaking Free from Narcissistic Shadows Trigger Warning
The overwhelming response to our podcast has shown us just how many people are silently struggling with the aftermath of narcissistic family dynamics. This episode dives deep into what it truly means to be the "black sheep" in a narcissistic family – not a flaw, but a superpower of truth-seeing that threatens those who rely on facades and manipulation.
We share a particularly moving story from a high school listener who reached out after realizing, through our podcast, that she wasn't broken or worthless as she'd been conditioned to believe. Her journey from suicide attempts to seeking therapy while still living in her difficult home situation highlights the critical importance of recognition and validation when navigating these toxic relationships.
Throughout our conversation, we explore common manipulation tactics like the silent treatment, strategies for fostering empathy within impossible family dynamics, and the challenging path of breaking generational cycles when becoming parents ourselves. We address the fear many survivors share: "Will I become like my narcissistic parent?" The answer lies in conscious choice and awareness – the very fact you're worried about this suggests you're already on a different path.
Dana shares insights from her therapeutic journey, while Victoria opens up about her experiences of physical trauma alongside emotional abuse. Together, we emphasize that healing isn't about changing the narcissist (an unlikely outcome) but about reclaiming your own identity and worth despite their influence.
Whether you're currently trapped in a narcissistic family, healing from past wounds, or supporting someone on this journey, this episode offers validation, perspective, and hope. The most beautiful flowers grow from dirt – your painful past doesn't determine your future. Connect with us, share your questions and wins, and remember you're part of a community that understands.
Good evening and welcome to another episode of Dark Dark. Who's there? Help, I'm Gasping for Air. Dana is co-hosting, as always, my ride or die girl. We have not even touched these Q&A questions. I mean we are not getting through them, but I love them. We've had more. I've put them in with the rest. So far we will get to them. I promise we will get to them. So I want to thank everybody. The numbers are crazy. I hate that there's that many people. I'm kind of really hoping that there's just some really curious people, not that many people who've had to go through this because it's life altering. It really is.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I think it's important, though, that people are asking these questions, because we can tell our stories, we can share our wisdom, we can share our trials and tribulations, but, at the end of the day, we want to know what everybody else is struggling with, and we want to know about your wins, too, not just keep it all negative. Let's hear about positive stuff too, and you know, just just keep it all coming Comments, questions, suggestions, everything because we're game, we're ready, we're here for you.
Speaker 1:That's a great idea, because we put out there to give us questions and we're getting them. But how about also give us some of your highs? Tell us some of the things that you've done and how you've overcome certain things, and we'll tell all that too. We would love to hear all of this. So here we go. All right, let's go for the gold. I mean, these are intense questions, like. I'm so honored that these people are coming out and trusting us like they are. What strategies can the black sheep use to foster empathy and awareness, to try to relate to their siblings as the golden child excuse me within a narcissistic family?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's important, not just with the golden child but, dare I say, even with the narcissistic parents or parents, because I had to do this with my mother who, as I often say, is the crux of my existence. But you know, we have to remember we're all going through our own human experience. Where we are in our level of healing, in our self-awareness, in what we are willing to confront and what we're willing to accept is different from where another person is. So we can't apply our perspectives to somebody else and we can't have those expectations of them as well. It would be nice if other people were on the same level we are, or thought the same as we do, but they're not.
Speaker 2:You know, and just to give somebody an example, because I'm using all these words, you know specifically, my mother had me when she was a teenager. She was obviously unwed and during a time when that was not socially acceptable, she did not want me anymore before she had me than after she had me. So I had to deal with her shame. But part of my healing was coming to terms with the fact and something that should maybe be obvious, but it never was, until you know I'm 48 now that she was a baby herself and she had a drunk, narcissistic father. My grandma was just at her wits end, always finding her husband with other women in their living room and their bedroom and their wherever, and he was abusive physically and my mother was dealing with all this stuff. So I have to believe she was just incapable of taking care of me or helping me through the abuse that I endured at the hands of her husband. Mothers do, but I have. I had to step back and kind of give her that grace of okay. She had her own stuff going on. Some people, I think, were trying the best they could, didn't know better, whatever, but that was the situation. And once I was able to step away from it and kind of turn things around to her perspective.
Speaker 2:Same as my brother, the golden child, I love him dearly but his life experience is that he has a very loving mother and a very loving father who have been supportive and encouraging and all these things. It doesn't matter to him, nor should it, that I had a different experience, a very polar opposite experience. So he cannot understand where I'm coming from. He can't have my perspective because that wasn't his frame of reference. So again, sometimes we have to remember. This is our experience, just as they're entitled to theirs. Once you can separate that, you can stop having these expectations that they're supposed to be this or fulfill this role in your life and with that you can have more acceptance of what actually is. I hope that answered the question. I'm not even sure it did, I think so. I'm just trying to go on.
Speaker 1:I think so. I want to take a second. It's a question, there's a question here, but I just want to. And I wrote her and said can I read this part on air? And she said yes, but I'm not going to say her name. She wrote to me and said I want to thank both of you for letting me finally see the light within my darkness of my life.
Speaker 1:I had no idea that I was living in the situation that I was in. I thought it was all me. I've tried to commit suicide. I don't even enjoy going to school anymore. I literally thought I was the worst human being on the planet, because that's what my everyday life was.
Speaker 1:I knew nothing different until I started listening to you guys. I'm not even sure how I found you, but now I listen every time there's a new episode Because of you. I realized that I am not at fault, I'm not ashamed, and I am now seeking therapy and counseling at my high school for the first time in my life. I cannot wait to get out of this house and get on with my life and understanding how to move forward, but I'm stuck here until then. I'm curious, as this is the beginning of my journey and understanding how to move forward, but I'm stuck here until then. I'm curious, as this is the beginning of my journey and I'm just starting to see the light, thanks to the two of you what do you consider the defining characteristics of that black sheep character in a narcissistic family dynamic? Because I've just learned that that's who my identity really is. Well, first of all, yay, so happy I like. I wrote to her this long message and I said can I please write that? I won't say name, I won't say anything, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:She was so happy and she couldn't believe that you know, that we wrote her back and I was like oh, we'll love to have you on, we'll change your name, we'll change everything.
Speaker 2:I don't think she's anywhere ready for that, but I give her such kudos because what a step, what a huge, huge step. Because I think we carry so much shame within ourselves and we start to we usually internalize all these things, these people tell us about who we are and who we're supposed to be or who they think we are that we start to think there is really something wrong with us. But it's so hard to admit like I need help with this because you don't want to really believe that about yourself. So reaching out and at such a young age, this is huge. And I have to say to whoever this is like, I totally feel you on this.
Speaker 2:Like she's high school, I was like 12, 13, 14, I was just like counting down, like how long till I'm 18? When can I get out of here? Because there's a difference when you're a kid and you have no rights and the police didn't do anything for me, child services didn't do anything for me, nobody was helping me, so I literally was stuck. It's not like an adult relationship where you have the option of leaving if you so choose. So that's a huge thing and I know just understand that. I know and I know you do too.
Speaker 2:How hard that is to feel literally trapped like, basically like an animal in a cage, having to endure all these things and tolerate all this just to stay alive and keep your head above water. That in itself, nobody should have to do that, but there is strength in doing that that nobody understands unless they've been there. So kudos, kudos, just know it will be okay. I promise you it'll be okay. Just keep going down this path of awareness and let us help you reach out again if you need to. But she was or she or he, I don't know was asking okay, what is the defining characteristic of a black sheep?
Speaker 1:That she just realized from the glimpse of light what are the actual defining characteristics of the black sheep. As I now realize, that's who I am and my narcissistic family dynamic.
Speaker 2:I think it's just being the truth seer. You are the one person who sees everything how it really is, versus those rose-colored glasses that we're handed and told to wear because this is how we want the world to perceive us. But we, whether we're wearing the glasses or not, we're just like it's all crap, it's all BS, it's all a facade.
Speaker 2:I used to call it my the happy family facade. I was supposed to play my role in this farce of a family and I didn't want to because it wasn't. It wasn't real, it wasn't freaking real, you know, because what was happening inside the house versus what we were portraying outside, which it was just all crap. So you're seeing the truth and that's your core value and it's a wonderful thing. So don't ever feel ashamed for being the black sheep, the scapegoat, the outsider, the whatever you want to call it, because there's more value in seeing truth in people than in following a lie, because so many people are. I mean, look at all the people who believe the lie. Look at all the people who believe that external, that facade.
Speaker 1:It's much better to see the truth, just hold on to it and know it's not you, there's nothing wrong with you, it's them, I promise Dana, I want to take it a step further, if we can, because this is a high school girl who reached out and she's seeking therapy, which I'm so unbelievably proud of her for. She's admitted that she's, you know, attempted suicide and she's, you know, felt like she's a lost cause and she's really at that very first step of healing. And it's so critical because how I read what she wrote to us was that she literally feels like nobody's in her corner. So I told her to make sure she listens. I'm going to make sure this episode is the next one we release so she can hear it. I told her, you know she could reach out at any time, but I want to take a moment for her and for others that might just be where she is. And the thing is is that you're a threat to your narcissistic parents?
Speaker 1:And it took me decades and decades and decades, and Dana it took me decades and Dana to figure these out, because Dana helped me.
Speaker 1:And you have to realize that they put all this on you because they're trying to make you out to be the bad person.
Speaker 1:They're trying to place blame on you because they cannot admit fault, they cannot admit their mistakes and so they think that you're strong enough and you're intimidation to them. You're an intimidation to them because that's why you're the black sheep, that's why they talk so negative about you, that's why they put the blame on you, that's why they cut out your self-esteem, because they're trying to lower your own opinion of your self-worth. And if you're not thinking that you are who you are, then they can, like, belittle you and tear you down. And you need to realize no, don't let anybody tear you down, don't let anybody tear you down, because I am sure that you are a beautiful person inside and out. I know you are because at your age I'm guessing you're between 16 and 18, that you're at this point in your life where you're already recognizing where I'm telling you I was much later in the life game before I realized and I don't know where Dana was, age wise. Where were you when you realized?
Speaker 2:Oh, I was younger I, it was definitely before I was 10, but definitely by the time I was 15, I saw everything. It was blatantly obvious. So I completely relate to this person. You know and I agree with 100% of what you're saying. I'm just going to add one thing real quick, though. It's the fact that narcissists and it doesn't matter if it's your parents, your spouse, a friend, a coworker they are very intuitive, believe it or not, they know that you're on to them, they know you see through their BS. That is why you're a threat. Yes, that is why you are a threat. It's your ability to see what other people don't see. And you know, I used to always wonder like why do I rub people so wrong? Like I can walk into a room and it's like I stir up everybody's demons.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I now realize it's not a bad thing. It's almost a superpower that I have, but it's all about perspective, so don't feel ashamed of that. I think it's a very, I think it's an amazing thing to have such a strong and powerful mind, to know what's what and to be able to discern at a young age. So go with it, embrace it, accept it and let that guide you in your healing, because I promise you it will.
Speaker 1:Well, another thing I want to say that I'm so glad that, for whatever reason, you were unable to complete the act that was attempted more than once, because you did say that you attempted more than once. You have a purpose, you have a reason to be here, and a split decision to take your life gives them power because they're going to use it. Believe me, don't give them that. They don't deserve it. They don't earn it. You have a purpose here and maybe you don't know that just yet. You're not on that part of that path, but you will be and you need to realize that you are worth living. You are worth the life you were given, that you're an intimidation to others because you have truth, you have your own self-worth and you're a person that that's worth getting up in the morning and smiling and saying you know what? Screw them. I'm better than that, because I'm not trying to tear people down. I'm trying to help people. I'm not this horrible person put in front of me. I am a good person and because of that they are threatened by me. Don't give them the satisfaction of trying to take your life or doing things to hurt yourself, because you don't need to do that to yourself because you're better than that. You deserve better than that. And think about it this way you are already surviving 100% of the worst days. You've already overcome all of that behind you. But please, please, please, realize that.
Speaker 1:You know, before I went through my domestic violence with my ex, I never thought I would be the abused wife. I never thought I would be. But after going through that and realizing that my biological parents put him in my life like I had no idea of that, parents put him in my life Like I had no idea of that, and then I started really cause. I did all my therapy based on him and when I was younger I was in therapy. But I was in therapy as to why my grandparents treated me more like their child than my parents treated me like their child and I never knew narcissism at that age. I never knew, you know, I had such blinders on. I didn't want to recognize that, why I was so different. I, when I was little, I thought, okay, it's because I'm a girl and he's a boy. My, my brother's a boy, so maybe that's why. But I just didn't take that time to really learn about it. And then I realized this is what I'm here, for I'm here to help people. I'm here to be a voice. I'm here to help people. I'm here to be a voice. I'm here to help other people realize you are worth so much more. And you know it took me a long time and I might get some ridicule about that. This is fine, but it took me such a long time to realize.
Speaker 1:Now I go back and look at you know my, my prequel, nart Nart who's there is literally when I wrote it, I had to put evidence in it because I was made out to be the liar. I wrote it. I had to put evidence in it because I was made out to be the liar the horrific piece of, as I've been called and I'm not a racist in any way I've been called white trash. I've been told oh, you put your number on a bus station to find a man. You are never worth being loved. Look at you. You look like Freddy Krueger and the Elephant man had a child together. You know I heard these every single day. I heard you know I wish I miscarried you instead and I was nine and that stays with you for the rest of your life. And when you hear all of these, it took me until I was in my forties that I realized, wow, they're really miserable people and they are trying so hard because you hear the the phrase all the time misery loves company. But all these people around them saw the money, they saw the power of who they were, and to hell with the child who survived this horrific domestic violence.
Speaker 1:You don't have surgery to correct something that isn't broken if it's not cosmetic, right. And so I've had over 100 surgeries and none of them have been elective. I haven't been able to get anything I want done. It's all like I tell people in a joking manner if I want to get a fix up. You know I don't go for cosmetic. I get a WD-40 to them because I'm all metal everywhere.
Speaker 1:You know I'm bionic and and literally you know, I my life. I have to have hearing aids to hear. I have a prosthetic arm that I refuse to wear. You know my shoulder is is Titanic, titanium. I'm. Everything's been replaced and you know what? I'm still here.
Speaker 1:How many times have they tried to take me down and fail, and you know what?
Speaker 1:Look at that. It doesn't matter how many times. If it's one or 100 or 1000, it doesn't matter. It matters that you are a good person with a good heart and a good sense of self. That you realized right away Once you started listening oh my God, that's me. And then you took the step on your own to go and start getting help, and that takes a very strong person and young lady. I'm here to tell you I'm proud of you. I think that you are so above where you think you are. I will be happy to speak with you one-on-one. I'm sure I'm not meaning to speak for Dana. I'm sure she would do it. I know I would do it. We do it together, uh, if you're more comfortable with that, but I have such respect for you because you have literally just seen a light and that little tiny flicker that you see, my dear, can start a wildfire and you need to realize that you hold your head up high and realize that you are a fantastic young lady 100% agree.
Speaker 2:And no, I love that Because I think that a lot of people need to hear that, not just this person, because I think that's something that we miss. We come here and we're. I know I felt that way too, and even in my preteen years I was like why am I even here? Why did I get you know? Why was I born so I could suffer? Why am I everybody's punching bag? This sucks, and I want it out too. I just didn't. I have no pain tolerance. If you pinch me, I'll cry, so I couldn't hurt myself. So thank God for that, though that you know. And and whether you believe in God or not, I do. I think that there's a reason that he protected me through my abusive childhood, through my violent marriage and all the times. And for the person that wrote in and anyone else who can relate, if you've ever thought about suicide or just even had the glint of an idea that you don't want to be here me too even had the glint of an idea that you don't want to be here me too, even as recently I'm going to say a September of this year. It sucks, because sometimes our minds go back there, but it's not that you don't want to live, it's that you don't want to hurt anymore. But you don't have to hurt anymore and when you are ready, when you are ready, you can reach out to Victoria, to me, to somebody you know and trust, to somebody in your community. I promise you there are people that will help you find the right resource and the right person to help you along, because not everybody is equipped, not everybody gets it, not everybody you know is going to respond very well to you or you to them. But the right person is out there and when you are ready, I promise you we can get you the. This is why Victoria and I get each other.
Speaker 2:It took us into our forties to like, get to where we're, like okay, and we're not crying on Christmas because mommy didn't invite us to her house. We don't want to go, it's okay, right, but there was a time where you feel excluded, you feel like you shouldn't be here. You feel you feel all. We've all felt those shameful, awful things. So just understand that you are here for a reason.
Speaker 2:If I had made a silly choice not to be here, there are a lot of things that wouldn't happen and you know, same with you, victoria, we are here and we're strong willed and we're brought the information we need so that we can keep fighting for ourselves, and that's what you should do. So if anyone else has ever struggled with hurting that badly, that you just feel like maybe not being here is a better option, I promise you you don't have to live that way. And that's not a better option. And you think you're alone, but really I promise you you're not as alone as you think. There are people. There might be people you don't even know yet, that you just haven't met, that are going to be your ride or dies, and so just hang in there a little longer, yeah.
Speaker 1:And those days go bad, they go away, and then they get better, and then you're like man, I could have missed this. You know, and and it's worth the, it's worth fighting for, you are worth fighting for and to hell with them. You know one of the things I would say, you know, to help you get through this. And and when I and I want to stress this when I was younger, I would get the silent treatment and it destroyed me because I didn't understand why am I getting ignored? Like you have to understand. Like, picture your biological parents in the room with you. So there's three of you in the room and my biological dad would look at my biological mother and say tell her X, y and Z, and I'm like I can hear you, I'm right here.
Speaker 1:But it didn't matter, because he refused to look at me, he refused to speak to me, and so she would convey it and I'd be like I'm not talking to you to get to him, I'm going to you know, and then he would just like and he'd walk away.
Speaker 1:And he even did the silent treatment to Faye, you know, when she was little, and it's like now I go back and look at that and I was like what a gift you get because you stop speaking to me.
Speaker 1:So if you can get them to give you the silent treatment, girl, go for it, because they're going to leave you alone and it might really hurt in the beginning, but it's not as painful as the bull crap that will come out of their face the rest of the time. And now I'm upset with myself because I'm like dadgummit. I should have made him give me the freaking silent treatment all the time, because then I didn't have to hear it, I didn't have to deal with it, they didn't want me around, but the minute they needed me for something you better believe it was all rainbows and teddy bears. But trust me, get them to get you quiet, like if they if they, you know have the opportunity to give you the silent treatment, go for it. Make sure they give it to you because that's your peace and quiet until the next phase where you get out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am a silent treatment person too. I loathe it, I hate it. But I think the silent treatment's hard because it just makes you feel like well, let me backtrack here. I think the core of it why it hurts us so much is because that's your mom, that's your dad, or, if it's later in life, it's your husband, it's your wife. Like what the hell they're supposed to be, my people that are like for me, if nobody else is, they're supposed to be on, and so when they reject you, it's like, oh, my goodness gracious, like how can they if they can't even love me? Nobody will. So it's just a matter of I. Oh, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:All I was going to say is that I think we have to remember that just because you were born out of somebody does not mean that there's some inherent nature that you're both going to get along. It's okay to not get along with the parents. It's okay to not get along with relatives, brothers, sisters, whoever, just like you go to work, you might not get along with everybody. You might not get along with everybody in a class at school. That's just life. So if you take that expectation out that my mother is supposed to this or my father is supposed to that. Take that out of it.
Speaker 2:They are human beings, like kind of where we started with that first question. They're humans, they're having their own experience and unfortunately, some humans can't fulfill their obligations and their dutiful roles to their children and it sucks and it's awful. But don't let that deter you, because there are plenty of other people in your life now or that you will come across. You and I, victoria, we're very fortunate, we had our grandmas, my great grandma, but there are always people and I have people now that say that they wish that I was their daughter and they would adopt me right now, at 48. And I love that because they have no obligation to care about me that much. But they do so. To hell with people that aren't for you. If they're biologically related or not, your people are your people and that's just what it is.
Speaker 1:Right, but I mean, I don't know about you, but like if I had the opportunity to choose, would I rather be little constantly, day after day, while I'm still residing in the house with them, or have them be silent and not speak to me at all. I'd rather have them be silent.
Speaker 2:I used to lock myself in my room as a kid and all the way through my teenage years like just I would just literally be by myself because I don't want to hear them, I don't want to interact with them. I don't want to hear them, I don't want to interact with them, I didn't want any part of them, and so it's just fine. It hurts still because, like I said, I held on to that expectation, that. But it's my mother, my mother's supposed to. Once I decided to let that crap go, because the reality is it's crap.
Speaker 2:I came out of somebody, but that doesn't mean that we have to get along. She likes her other kid better and I'm glad for him. I'm glad he, my brother, didn't have to endure the same childhood I did, because that's what I was afraid of, but he didn't, so he got the good parts of them. Thank God it was just me. I'm handling it, I took responsibility and I'm good. But that's what we have to do is just. You know it's a little selfish, but you just got to worry about you. They have unhealed trauma. That's their problem, their issue. What they say and what they do to you is also believe it or not their problem. It really has nothing to do with you, except for the fact that you see through their crap.
Speaker 1:So you know, my therapist is hilarious and she, she says something to me one day when I was just like I don't understand, I don't get it, why am I not? You know, I'm nothing like them, how can I be there? As I'm adopted, I was left at a fire station and she looked at me and she goes sweetheart, you can pick your nose, pick your ass. You can pick your nose, pick your ass. You can't be parents and I like lost it. I mean it was just like she's got a point, like that's true, you know, like she's, she's right, you can't, you know, think about it like that, you know, I mean you just gotta. And it goes the other way around too.
Speaker 2:I used to know a 90 some year old lady and she had had nine children and she told me one day that she only liked one of them. It sounded like such a terrible thing to say, but I'm like you know what she's being honest. I mean, just because you have them doesn't mean you have to like them. So that's true, it's mutual, because I met several of them and, believe me, they didn't like her much either.
Speaker 1:Now you'll see why we can't get through all this. All right, let's get to our third one. How can individuals from narcissistic backgrounds advocate?
Speaker 2:for relationships and parenting. I'm not sure what they're trying to ask.
Speaker 1:I didn't either, but I wrote a verbatim of what was asked. So how?
Speaker 2:can individuals from narcissistic backgrounds advocate for relationships in parenting? If I'm interpreting that correctly and forgive me whoever wrote in, I'm just guessing because it sounds like it's a good question. I think it just goes back to a basic idea of you came out of this. You know this childhood with narcissistic parents like you and I both have Victoria. And then all of a sudden you're a parent, whether by choice or by accident. You're like, oh my gosh, what do I do? How do I know how to parent, when this is what I had for a frame of reference and I mean we just talked about choices. But I think that's what it comes down to. That's what it was for me, because very early on also, everything kind of happened. When my hormones happened, like 12, 13 years old, I was like there's no way I'm ever having a child. I will never. I don't want a kid, I don't want to be a mother. I was not one of those little girls that played with baby dolls or anything, never Didn't want to play house, none of that, because I was afraid I would turn into my mother and or stepfather. And as you get older, you hear these things about oh, whether you like it or not, you're going to turn into your parents and I was like there's no way in heck, I am going to do that. So I think that by the time I got to that age in my later 20s where I was like, oh crap, I really do actually want a kid because everyone else is having one and I kind of want one now and you know, your biological clock kicks in, I realized I could have a child and that I was capable of loving that child and making sure that child, by choice, did not experience one iota of what I went through with my mother and stepfather. So that's what I did and you know he jokes to this day.
Speaker 2:My son is 21. And there's this joke that I'm like Marie and everybody loves Raymond. You know the mother who's always. I'm not, I'm not a meddler or a controller, but I mean I love my son, like Marie loves Raymond. You know I don't have another kid, but I have a golden child in my one child because I love him that much and I will do anything and everything to make sure his life is good and he knows he can ask me anything anytime and maybe that's coddling and maybe that's spoiling. I call it love because that's my kid and I can and I want to, and that's just what it is. And so he is very well adjusted, despite what we went through in my first marriage to his dad. He is very social, he is very successful at his job. He makes a ridiculous amount of money Not that that's necessarily a measure of success but he has had everything go very well for him, whereas somebody else in the same situation would have, more likely just as I could have, just as likely and you as well gone into drugs and low motivation, low achievement. So I am glad whether it's just him and I got lucky or if I really did do a good job, maybe a combination did do a good job, maybe a combination. But it's a choice and you have that choice to make.
Speaker 2:As far as the advocating aspect of that question, how do you advocate for parenting? I think that if you're getting at like, how can you convince people not to be narcissistic parents? If that's what you're getting at, I don't think that's possible. I personally don't feel.
Speaker 2:Even though narcissism is supposedly a personality disorder, I don't believe that it can be rehabilitated. I don't think that a narcissist would go to therapy unless there was some benefit or something they could get out of it, which is usually making somebody else look crazy or stupid. That's the only thing they could really benefit from, but they wouldn't go to therapy. They would never even acknowledge that there's a weakness. These are people who won't admit to being depressed or anxious or anything, because nothing's wrong with them. So I don't think you can advocate or help in any way to prevent narcissistic parenting. A person's either a narcissist or they're not, and it's unfortunate that they're just kind of out there and being able to do what they do to people. So we as individuals have to set those boundaries and protect ourselves from whatever they're doing, whether they're a parent, whether they're a child, whether they're whoever in our lives.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely. You know, talk about advocating. The only thing I can add to that that I was thinking is like the narcissist will never go to therapy. They believe I'll put you on a couch but I'm not joining on it. And so when Faith was I guess she was probably about seven or eight um, I made it clear that that my biological mother needed to come to an appointment, she adamantly was like I'm not wasting my time, I'm not wasting my day, I got better things to do, I'm not doing it like it was just awful. And I was like, well, you get to talk about how she annoys you. And she's like I'm going.
Speaker 1:And I was like, when she realized that she was gonna bad mouth my kid, yeah, I didn't tell her who we were seeing or anything like that. So we get to the appointment and we go in there and I've always had multiple therapists, counselors, psychiatrists, psychologists for Faith to have, so she knows there's someone else for her to talk to, outside of just me from the jump. Because, know, from the jump, she hasn't had the normal baby life and the toddler life and so I've always wanted her to be able to go and talk to whomever she felt needed that it wasn't just me, that she had those avenues. So I didn't tell and donor, and we get there and we walk in and this is a spitfire and the woman is a spitfire, and so we go in there and they took faith into the playroom, um, with a therapist, and she was like well, you know, I've been treating faith for a while now and I I always hear about the complications between you, grandma, and faith.
Speaker 1:And she's like do you know why she calls you mimi? And she was like no, and she goes. Do you want me to tell you? She's like? No, she goes. Well, I'm going to tell you anyway. And she goes. She called you Mimi because everything is about you, you, you, you, you. So it's me, me, me, me, me, right, and she's like I want you to realize that your granddaughter is a proxy. So she can't with a proxy, you really don't do m's, and you know she doesn't have a tongue. So for her to go above and beyond and still say me, me, me, me, me, and call you me, me is just a lesson, right.
Speaker 1:So she, she's like so why do you have a problem? And she goes well, I'll tell her to do something. And she'll be like you're not my mom and you know she goes. Well, okay, and she goes. What do you tell her to do that she wouldn't do that? She's like well, I told her you know, you don't have to be nice to your mother, you do what I say. And she's like no, you're not my mom. And she'll say you know, did you tell her that you were okay if her daughter didn't make it on on surgery? She's like yeah, and then she's like why, even here, like, and all she did was try and spin it and the psychiatrist that we were in there with just really turned it on her and it was great. And then when she realized that, she turned it on me and she was like well, all she cares about is taking care of her kid. Like, she doesn't give me the time of day, she doesn't help me do anything, she doesn't do anything.
Speaker 1:And the therapist says therapist says well, do you do anything for your daughter? You know, were you there when your daughter was dying in the ICU? Did you go see her? She's like no, she goes well. When your daughter and granddaughter were in the ICU, did you go see them? No, what about your granddaughter and daughter said hey, spend the night and have a girl's night. What'd you say? I'm not giving up my bed, you know.
Speaker 1:And she was so disturbed and bothered that we made her come to this and we tricked her, which we did and I openly admit that. But it was just, you know, for the therapist. She's like for me to help Faith, I need to hear your side, you know. And then she was like Faith comes in here and she's like my baby frustrates me so bad. And she's like why does she frustrate you? She's like because I don't like how she talks to my mom and my mom will let me talk back to her the way I want to. And then she's like well, that child shouldn't be talking to me the way she does.
Speaker 1:And this one over here, you know, always tells her, you know she can't talk to me like that and so she doesn't talk to me. And I said I've taught her that even though she's your granddaughter, you have to be respectful and that she can't tell you to go to hell, because faith will tell you to go to hell. Faith will tell you very quickly to go to hell. And I was like I told her she can't do that because she has to be respectful and you know, when she told me, I don't care if you don't come off the or table, I put my hand over faith's mouth and said go upstairs, go out. She's like no, I'm gonna, like you know, and faith is just like let me have her, nope. So I'm kind of thinking that's what they're talking about, about advocating is like trying to find a way maybe to bring things to fruition so that maybe it can be worked on by all parties.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that's not gonna happen with a narcissist right they.
Speaker 1:They don't believe they need help. They don't believe that they need to go and seek anybody, like I constantly heard from them. Why do you go see somebody a couple times a week like, why? And are you talking about us like they're paranoid? Are you talking about us? What are you saying about us? Why are you talking about us? You know these were things that were constant, not how can we make things better for you or anything like that. So to me it's like trying to get somebody to do something you know they're never going to do. You're never going to get a narcissist to really sit down and say I'm so wrong. How can I fix this? I need to better myself for my children. It's just not going to happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's not even just for the children, it's not for anybody, not even for themselves, because we have to remember and there's a lot here but narcissists operate solely out of their ego. Whatever fills their ego, that's all that matters to them, it's all about them. Literally, even those narcissists that come off charitable and generous no, no, no, no, no. They are getting admiration and praise and all this stuff from other people. They're basically sucking this energy out of other people so they feel good about themselves, so they can uphold this image that they're putting out of other people, so they feel good about themselves, so they can uphold this image that they're putting out of what wonderful people they are. But it's all a farce. So, yeah, we have to remember. But I want to say one thing too, is that this, what you just said, basically speaks to cause. I think it's important.
Speaker 2:I always kind of put off the whole idea of help. I'm, but I was also surrounded by three prime people in my life mother, stepfather and first husband who were all telling me and other people that I was crazy and mentally unstable and unfit to care for my son and this, and that because they had to make sure my credibility was shot because they knew I would eventually speak up and expose everything and expose them, which is exactly why your parents were concerned about you. Know you going to therapy? Like, why are they saying, what are you saying? What are you saying about us? They don't want their reputation smeared. They don't mind ruining your reputation, but theirs has to be pristine. So it's a very big deal to be able to get past the shame of it and be able to admit like, okay, I'm listening to podcasts, I'm watching YouTubes, I'm reading books, but I need a little more. I need more one-on-one, I need a little more help getting there. I need somebody to hold my hand and help me the rest of the way. But you have to be open to it, just like a narcissist would have to be open to any kind of rehabilitation or therapy, which they never would be.
Speaker 2:There are, believe it or not, and we see them all over social media and in our lives, people who really could use some healing, and I admit I was one of them, and there were many people that approached me and said can I help, can I support you? I was like oh, not me, I'm good, I'm fine, I'm getting there, I can do it on my own? Well, no, I couldn't, but I had to be ready and I wouldn't be receptive until I was ready to admit and accept that I couldn't do it on my own. So that's just a little plug for anybody who's on the fence. There is no shame in asking somebody for help or to reach out for that, because we all are just trying to get to the same place, which is to some inner peace and the ability to enjoy and find the joys and see the joys in the present and future and not be stuck in the past and all that mucking crap that bogs us down.
Speaker 1:So Right, and here's a perfect example. You'll know that a narcissist will never want to get help, because and I'll give the scenario and let Dana talk about it it's not really a scenario in my book.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to go through the whole thing I ended up having to have multiple surgeries on my arm prior to my amputation. And I saw I went after and say legal counsel, and the counselor was somebody I knew and he was a really great person he still is and when we sat down with them and I explained that there was a little history he needed to know about, well, first I was told I wasn't allowed to tell my counselor and and counselor I mean attorney. And so when my attorney said you know, what else am I not gonna know? I want to know anything that could become a surprise to us. And he was like we need to go after the physical therapist as well, because the physical therapist obviously wasn't doing the right treatment, obviously caused more issues. Um, and I was like, well, this is going to be a problem. And the attorney says, well, why? And I was like, and I just look over, and my biological dad, and he was like what? And I was like, well, there's a little thing going on over there.
Speaker 1:And when my attorney found out he's like you have to stop it. He's like, now, stop it now. And he was like, no, nobody's going to tell me what I can and can't do. I deserve to be happy. She doesn't want me to be happy. Do you think I'm going through all this on my arm to keep you from being happy? I mean, how far-fetched are you? And then he kept saying you've got to stop it. He goes when we go to trial. This is going to come out. It's going to come out that you are taking her to a hotel out of town and that you're going to dinner with her and you're lying to your wife about her.
Speaker 1:And you know and I'm talking about my physical therapist, that's who he was you know, and so, with that being said, he actually looked at me and said, quote, unquote, you need to fall on the sword and you need to not pursue this legally because this can't come out in court, because your mother can't find out about it. I mean, I don't, I'm going to let David say what she wants to say about this, but like that to me has been the perfect example of a real narcissist who doesn't give one rat's behind about anybody but themselves. I mean, you have a child who literally was losing a limb and he was worried about his second hit. Sorry, but you know that's what it was.
Speaker 1:When faith, this early in this year, went into multi-organ failure, I told the doctors you immediately send me over to the hospital across the street. I'm donating my kidney, you take whatever else you need. If you need a piece of liver, if you need whatever, you take it. It was not even a second hesitation. It was like let's go, like test me, go, and you know what it's, just do it. And I was like and then I'll recover back here in the hospital with her. Not even a second thought. But when your biological father says you're gonna have to follow the sword because it can't come out court that I'm hanging around, if you will and that's the wrong terminology with this woman. That, to me, is the epitome definition of the narcissist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I. That's all I was going to say actually, because I mean we could have a whole other discussion about narcissism. And I did read your book, narc Narc who's there, and I remember all of that and it was so atrocious. But it speaks exactly to what narcissism is when you said that you had to fall on the sword for the sake of his reputation and so that his wife didn't know about the infidelity, and not that it was the first or the last time. But that is the whole thing. It's about them. It's about you having to take the fall. You have to be crazy, you have to be delusional, you have to take the like.
Speaker 2:I said, I always felt like the punching bag, always just being walked all over. It didn't matter how I felt or what I needed, or it didn't matter that I was a child, it didn't matter that. You know, same thing when I, when I had my son. None of it matters, the animals, the cats and dogs running around don't matter they. I tell people to liken it to having an intervention with somebody about drugs or alcohol. You can give them a gazillion reasons why they should stop. You know shooting up with heroin, or I don't even know what you should up with. That shows how much I know. Or to stop drinking, whatever it is for your newborn baby, for your wife, for your mother who's on her dying bed and it's her last language they don't care. They don't care, they. And until somebody cares, nothing is going to change.
Speaker 2:So that's just narcissism, and I think you just you know people are so concerned about like what a narcissist is and what narcissist qualities are. I just call it. When somebody intentionally harms and disrespects you, that's it, and you can call it whatever you want, and they don't need to even be abusive necessarily. They could just be annoying with it. Or you know, that's not the kind of relationship you want, no matter who it is in your life. That is not serving you or your purpose and nobody should have to dishonor themselves by tolerating it. You know, if you want to go to Christmas every year at the family and and believe me, we all have that person that's like you don't want to go because you don't want to run into them and but you know what, you can go and say hello or don'ts, whatever, and just not interact with them. But as far as having a regular relationship with these kinds of people, no, no, move on.
Speaker 1:Right, 100%. Well, we got through one more page.
Speaker 2:We'll get there eventually, but keep sending them in.
Speaker 1:And you know what, I love that and people start giving us what you've done. Give us some of the examples of things you've done to overcome what you've done. I love that. I love the interaction, you know. Eventually I would like to see if anybody wants to come on, maybe after. Maybe you know a few more of the episodes where we're talking about what people have done and some questions they might have Um it. It would be up to them, of course, if they felt comfortable enough to come on. But uh, the fact that it's reaching the numbers, that it is and it's helping so many people, it is just amazing. It really is uh to know that we can make even a difference in one person like that, that beautiful high school girl who said I had no idea what I was living in until I heard your podcast. And that's well worth everything that we do, at least in my opinion, because it's just. You know, nobody should go through this alone.
Speaker 2:Well and it's interesting because I was just talking to somebody the other day and brought it up about my first book, gasping for Air, which was about my first marriage. Thank you, but the part that we were talking about was that it was a chapter in the book towards the end where I was filling out a form for an order of protection. I had been with him for 24 years at this point. So I had endured an abusive childhood with two narcissistic parents, 24 years with my narcissistic husband and I finally had the nerve because I felt like I had some nerve going to the courthouse and asking for an order of protection. But when guns and knives start getting involved, you start getting scared enough Although there were a million things before that that should have warned me, but it wasn't until I filled out that form and if anyone has filled it out, I know you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2:Has this person ever, you know, used a weapon against you? Has this person ever intimidated you? Has this person ever stalked you? There's all these questions and you mark yes or no and I marked yes to all of them and I'm like oh, I know what abuse is. I was abused in my childhood. I had child services and the police involved. I know what abuse is. I wasn't abused. Guess what abuse is. I wasn't abused, guess what. Anyone who reads my book. You're not that far in when you're like gosh, darn, when is this girl going to leave this guy? I mean, that's what people say to me all the time, but they don't get it.
Speaker 1:They don't get it unless they've lived it.
Speaker 2:But the thing is it's because we think of abuse as a black eye or God forbid the worst of circumstances like you have been through, victoria, and we need to start realizing that anything that is I mean we use this word toxic, but anything that threatens your sense of self and your self-worth, your if not the physical, sexual, financial, legal, and all the gaslighting and the manipulation. So don't ever. I'm big on shame, as you guys know, but I don't want anyone to ever be ashamed. You may not even know the circumstances you're in, even though you've been in those circumstances before, because maybe even I realized late. I gaslit myself.
Speaker 2:I didn't want to believe that I put myself in another abusive situation. I didn't want to tell myself that I was a fool. And how could I be so stupid? You know what? I was human, I was open. I wanted it to be something it would never be. I had hope, and that's a good thing I now see. But don't ever get hard on yourself about that. It's okay, we all end up in situations, but we're all here and we're all together and we're all here for each other. So keep joining us and if any part of this episode resonates with somebody that you know. Send it to them please, because maybe if they listen to it they might realize something about their own circumstances and be able to reach out and get help or get out of that situation altogether as well.
Speaker 1:Right. And another thing is when I was reading and I always say this when I was reading Dana's books the first one, I couldn't put it down and I was so just like how you resonate with so much of it. And then I started reading Gasping for Air is one of my top 10 favorite books I've ever read in my life and so but then you get choking on shame and you really get into it and you start going. I get that, like I get it, and I think that a lot of people like this beautiful high school girl, if you go and literally just take a minute, go, get her books and go and I'm not doing that just to promote her and selling her book. I'm telling you because if you go and you read it and I had this happen to me I'm going in and sitting there and I'm reading and I'm going.
Speaker 1:This happened to me, I get it and you know what it does to you. It makes you realize you're not the only one, you're not something that's damaged. You're not broken, you're not. You know, if you break a beautiful glass the most beautiful stained glass windows come from broken pieces you can piece yourself back together and you go and you look at these books and you read them and you resonate, you're like I'm not the only one, maybe it's not me, it is them, because now you're getting to see, you know, and you have that realization at different parts of your age. This beautiful girl found out in her high school years, and that was just this week. And then, you know, it took me much later in life. Everybody's different, but if you see that, maybe you realize then that you're not alone, because you're not and you realize, hey, this happened to someone else and it's not me, and my self-worth doesn't need to be in question and I don't need to be so afraid of my scars.
Speaker 1:I was out the other day and somebody looked at me, called me a freak and I just, you know, that's how it is, and I just looked at them and you know, at the end of the day they got to look at themselves in the mirror every single day and that's fine. You know, at Halloween, at the best time, I walked around telling everybody I was Captain Hook's sister, and, and people were just, you know, and people were like, why do you always laugh? Why do you always have a smile on your face? Why, because I beat death more than once, like every time I was supposed to die. I overcame it and they're still miserable pieces of shit. And I'm here and I have millions of people who listen to us because of people like Dana. I have a sister now in Dana who I would move heaven and earth for, I think, the world of her, and the minute she goes like quiet for a couple of days, I'm like annoying her. You know, are you okay? You know I do and she'll tell you.
Speaker 2:I'm like, hey, it's your annoying buddy over here, just making sure you're okay, because I never had that, but I thank you for that and I love that.
Speaker 1:But I thank you for that and I love that. So we are here. You are not alone, like. This girl was so shocked that I wrote her back and she the first thing I said is I'm so sorry it took me this long to write you back. It was like an hour. And I said I was actually helping somebody else and she was like the fact you wrote me was stunning, like, and I said why. You know you were just somebody just like me. We put our pants on the same way. I might need a little help because I got one arm down, but we're all just the same. You know, and think about the force we can create together if we unite together. I mean how powerful and strong we all are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a hundred percent. So I mean, you and I think alike. We're, you know, great minds, hopefully, but you know great minds hopefully, but you know. One last thought, just to piggyback on everything you just said, is that we all need to remember that the most beautiful flowers grow from dirt. That's right. Why are you smiling? Because, yeah, you've been through some crap, you've been through your dirt, you've been through the storms, the worst of it. But why would you want to choose misery? Why Nobody wants to live there? I don't know why I held on to my victimhood for so long, but I finally realized this sucks. I want to be happy, I want to smile too, and so now I am. There's a lot of work to get there, but we're here for you. So keep tuning in, keep reaching out, and we thank everybody and we love you all, even if we don't know. You just know that it's okay. We can all love each other and help each other along.
Speaker 1:Yes, we will see you soon. Thanks everyone.
Speaker 2:Bye.
Speaker 1:Bye.
